Agenda and minutes

Children, Young People, and Education Committee (On-site) - Thursday, 13 February 2025 09.30

Venue: Committee Room 3 - Senedd. View directions

Contact: Naomi Stocks 

Media

Senedd.TV: View the webcast

Transcript: Transcript for 13/02/2025 - Children, Young People, and Education Committee

Items
Expected timing No. Item

09.30

1.

Appointment of a Temporary Committee Chair

Minutes:

1.1 Buffy Williams MS sent her apologies. Under Standing Order 17.22, Vaughan Gething MS was elected as Temporary Chair.

09.30

2.

Introductions, apologies, substitutions, and declarations of interest

Minutes:

2.1 The Chair welcomed Members to the Children, Young People and Education Committee.

2.2 Apologies were received from Buffy Williams MS and Natasha Asghar MS. Joyce Watson MS substituted for Buffy and Samuel Kurtz MS substituted for Natasha.

2.3 Under Standing Order 17.24A Cefin Cambell MS declared an interest as he was part of the development of Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill.

09.30 - 16.00

3.

Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill - Stage 2 proceedings

Mark Drakeford MS, Cabinet Secretary for Finance and Welsh Language

Bethan Webb, Deputy Director, Cymraeg 2050

Sioned Tobias, Lawyer, Welsh Government

Siwan Daniel, Lawyer, Welsh Government

 

 

Documents relevant to Stage 2 proceedings will be available on the Bill page.

 

 

The Children, Young People and Education Committee agreed on 09 January 2025, under Standing Order 26.21, that the order of consideration for Stage 2 proceedings will be:

 

Sections 1-5; Schedule 1; Sections 6-36; Schedule 2; Sections 37-55 and Long Title.

 

Supporting documents:

Marshalled list of Amendments

Grouping of Amendments

Welsh Language and Education (Wales) Bill (as introduced)

Explanatory Memorandum

 

 

There will be breaks at appropriate times during the proceedings

Minutes:

3.1 In accordance with Standing Order 26.21, the Committee disposed of the following amendments to the Bill:

 

Amendment 100 (Cefin Campbell MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 101 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 101 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 1 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 2 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 3 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 4 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 5 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 6 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 102 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 102 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 103 (Cefin Campbell MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 7 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 104 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 104 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 105 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 105 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 106 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 106 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 8 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 9 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 10 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 107 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 107 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 108 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 108 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 109 (Cefin Campbell MS) was withdrawn in accordance with Standing Order 26.66(i).

Amendment 110 (Cefin Campbell MS) was withdrawn in accordance with Standing Order 26.66(i).

Amendment 111 (Cefin Campbell MS) was withdrawn in accordance with Standing Order 26.66(i).

Amendment 11 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 12 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 13 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 112 (Cefin Campbell MS) was not moved.

Amendment 113 (Cefin Campbell MS) was not moved.

 

Amendment 114 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 114 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 115 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 115 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 116 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 116 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 117 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 117 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 118 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 118 was not agreed.

 

 

Amendment 14 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 119 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 119 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 120 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 120 not agreed.

 

Amendment 121 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 121 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 122 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 122 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 123 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 123 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 124 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 124 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 125 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 125 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 92 (Samuel Kurtz MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Davies MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

Amendment 92 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 93 (Samuel Kurtz MS) was withdrawn in accordance with Standing Order 26.66(i).

Amendment 15 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 126 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 126 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 127 (Cefin Campbell MS) was not moved.

Amendment 16 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 17 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 18 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 128 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 128 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 129 (Cefin Campbell MS) was not moved.

                                                                         

Amendment 130 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 130 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 131 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 131 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 132 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 132 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 19 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 20 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 21 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 22 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 133 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 133 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 134 (Cefin Campbell MS) was withdrawn in accordance with Standing Order 26.66(i).     

Amendment 135 (Cefin Campbell MS) was not moved.        

Amendment 136 (Cefin Campbell MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 137 (Cefin Campbell MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 138 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 138 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 140 (Cefin Campbell MS) was not moved.        

 

Amendment 139 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 139 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 141 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 141 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 23 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 24 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 142 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 142 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 25 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 26 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 27 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Joel James MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Cefin Campbell MS

 

 

Amendment 27 was agreed.

 

Amendment 28 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Joel James MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Cefin Campbell MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 28 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 29 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Cefin Campbell MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Cefin Campbell MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

 

Amendment 29 was agreed.

 

As amendment 29 was agreed, amendment 143 (Cefin Campbell MS) fell.

Amendment 30 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 144 (Cefin Campbell MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 145 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 145 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 31 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 32 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 33 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 34 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 35 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Joel James MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Cefin Campbell MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 35 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 36 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 72 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 146 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 146 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 38 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Cefin Campbell MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Cefin Campbell MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

 

Amendment 38 was agreed.

 

Amendment 39 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 40 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Cefin Campbell MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

 

Amendment 40 was agreed.

 

Amendment 73 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 41 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Joel James MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Cefin Campbell MS

 

 

Amendment 41 was agreed.

 

Amendment 42 (Mark Drakeford MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Vaughan Gething MS

Joel James MS

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Cefin Campbell MS

 

 

Amendment 42 was agreed.

 

Amendment 43 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 44 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 45 (Mark Drakeford MS) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

 

Amendment 94 (Samuel Kurtz MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 94 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 95 (Samuel Kurtz MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Joel James MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

Cefin Campbell MS

Joyce Watson MS

 

As the vote was tied, the Chair used his casting vote in the negative (in accordance with SO 6.20(ii)). Therefore amendment 95 was not agreed.

 

Amendment 147 (Cefin Campbell MS)

In Favour

 

Against

Abstain

Cefin Campbell MS

Vaughan Gething MS

 

 

Carolyn Thomas MS

 

 

Joyce Watson MS

 

 

Joel James MS

 

 

Samuel Kurtz MS

 

Amendment 147 was not agreed.

 

3.2 The Chair declared that Sections 1 – 27 of the Bill were agreed.

3.3 The remaining Amendments will be disposed of at next week’s meeting.

 

4.

Papers to note

Minutes:

4.1 The papers were noted.

4.1

Information from Stakeholders

Supporting documents:

4.2

Welsh Government Draft Budget 2025-26

Supporting documents:

4.3

Qualifications Wales - Annual Report

Supporting documents:

4.4

Implementation of education reforms

Supporting documents:

4.5

Welsh Government Draft Budget 2025-26

Supporting documents:

4.6

Routes into post-16 education and training

Supporting documents:

4.7

Care Inspectorate Wales: Annual Scrutiny

Supporting documents:

4.8

Information from Stakeholders

Supporting documents:

 

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