Agenda and minutes

This meeting was held in a hybrid format, with some Members in the Senedd Chamber and others joining by video-conference.

The Presiding Officer will call party spokespeople to ask questions without notice to the Cabinet Secretary after Question 2.

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The item started at 13.30

The first 9 questions were asked. The Presiding Officer invited party spokespeople to ask questions to the Cabinet Secretary after question 2.

The Presiding Officer will call party spokespeople to ask questions without notice to the Cabinet Secretary after Question 2.

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The item started at 14.18

Questions 1-4 and 6-9 were asked. Question 5 was withdrawn. The Presiding Officer invited party spokespeople to ask questions to the Cabinet Secretary after question 2.

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The item started at 15.21

The first 3 questions were asked.

To ask the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Janet Finch-Saunders (Aberconwy): Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on why the Welsh Government is stepping out of the four-nation approach to the deposit return scheme?

To ask the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Ynys Môn): Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board's announcement to delay the provision of vascular operations at Glan Clwyd Hospital, which will lead to patients having to receive treatments in England?

The item started at 15.35

Answered by the Deputy First Minister and Cabinet Secretary for Climate Change and Rural Affairs

Janet Finch-Saunders (Aberconwy): Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on why the Welsh Government is stepping out of the four-nation approach to the deposit return scheme?

Answered by the Cabinet Secretary for Health and Social Care

Rhun ap Iorwerth (Ynys Môn): Will the Cabinet Secretary make a statement on Betsi Cadwaladr University Health Board's announcement to delay the provision of vascular operations at Glan Clwyd Hospital, which will lead to patients having to receive treatments in England?

There were no 90 Second Statements

The item started at 16.06

The proposal under Standing Order 12.24 and 12.40 to group the following motions for debate and for voting was agreed.

NNDM8741 Elin Jones (Ceredigion)

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Carolyn Thomas (Welsh Labour) in place of Jack Sargeant (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Committee for the Scrutiny of the First Minister.

NNDM8742 Elin Jones (Ceredigion)

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Carolyn Thomas (Welsh Labour) in place of Hefin David (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Children, Young People and Education Committee.

NNDM8743 Elin Jones (Ceredigion)

To propose that the Senedd, in accordance with Standing Order 17.14, elects Mick Antoniw (Welsh Labour) in place of Carolyn Thomas (Welsh Labour) as a member of the Culture, Communications, Welsh Language, Sport, and International Relations Committee.

The motions were agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

The item started at 16.07

NNDM8744 Hannah Blythyn (Delyn)

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes that the Senedd Commissioner for Standards has notified the Standards of Conduct Committee that he is unable to act in relation to a particular complaint.

2. Appoints, in relation to the complaint referred to in point 1, Melissa McCullough as acting Commissioner, in accordance with Section 4(1) of the National Assembly for Wales Commissioner for Standards Measure 2009, on the following terms:

a) the appointment takes effect on 21 November 2024;

b) the appointment ends immediately when notice is given to the acting Commissioner by the Clerk of the Senedd;

c) the acting Commissioner’s remuneration is to be a daily rate of £458.36 (or pro-rata for part of a day) for activities that relate directly to the role and responsibilities of the post plus reasonable expenses; and

d) all sums referred to in point 2(c) are to be paid to the acting Commissioner by the Senedd Commission.

The motion was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

NDM8712 Sian Gwenllian (Arfon)

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes a proposal for a Bill on the incorporation of the right to adequate housing, as set out in the International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, into Welsh law.

2. Notes that the purpose of this Bill would be to:

a) establish the right to adequate housing as a fundamental right in Welsh law, ensuring access to safe, secure, and affordable housing for all;

b) place a duty on Welsh Ministers and public authorities to progressively realise the right to adequate housing;

c) require regular assessments of housing needs and conditions, with targets set to reduce unmet housing needs and improve conditions over time;

d) strengthen tenant protections and support fair rental practices to ensure housing stability; and

e) establish mechanisms for individuals to seek redress if their right to adequate housing is violated or unmet.

Co-submitters

Mabon ap Gwynfor (Dwyfor Meirionnydd)

This item was postponed

NDM8729 Hefin David (Caerphilly)

To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 20.16:

Agrees the budget of the Senedd Commission for 2025-26, as specified in Table 1 of the Senedd Commission Budget 2025-26, laid before the Senedd on 13 November 2024, and that it be incorporated in the Annual Budget Motion under Standing Order 20.26(ii).

Supporting documents

Finance Committee report – Scrutiny of the Senedd Commission Draft Budget 2025-26

The item started at 16.09

Voting on the motion under this item was deferred until Voting Time.

NDM8729 Hefin David (Caerphilly)

To propose that the Senedd in accordance with Standing Order 20.16:

Agrees the budget of the Senedd Commission for 2025-26, as specified in Table 1 of the Senedd Commission Budget 2025-26, laid before the Senedd on 13 November 2024, and that it be incorporated in the Annual Budget Motion under Standing Order 20.26(ii).

The result was as follows:

The motion was agreed.

NDM8730 Peredur Owen Griffiths (South Wales East)

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Finance Committee ’Review into the operations, processes and investigations carried out by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales’ which was laid in the Table Office on 8 November 2024.

The item started at 16.31

NDM8730 Peredur Owen Griffiths (South Wales East)

To propose that the Senedd:

Notes the report of the Finance Committee ’Review into the operations, processes and investigations carried out by the Public Services Ombudsman for Wales’ which was laid in the Table Office on 8 November 2024.

The motion was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

NDM8732 Heledd Fychan (South Wales Central)

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the UK Government’s decision to increase employer national insurance contributions in the autumn budget.

2. Believes the added cost to public sector employers in Wales should be met in full by the UK Treasury.

3. Notes the OBR’s assessment that the increase in employer national insurance contributions is expected to lead to stalled real wage growth at a time when Welsh employment rates are the lowest in the UK.     

4. Regrets the lack of clarity on whether the reimbursement from the UK Treasury will include, amongst other sectors, university employers, GPs and third sector organisations.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) press the UK Treasury for the reimbursement of added national insurance contributions costs in the public sector to be based on the Stats Wales and Labour Force Survey definitions of the public sector workforce, which includes amongst other sectors, university employees, GPs and third sector organisations;   

b) provide a comprehensive analysis of the impact that the rise in employer national insurance contributions will have on the jobs market in Wales; and

c) increase the level of business rates relief in the upcoming Welsh budget to mitigate the impact of national insurance contributions rises within the domestic small medium enterprises sector.  

The following amendments were tabled:

Amendment 1 Jane Hutt (Vale of Glamorgan)

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes:

a) the UK Government’s decision to increase employer national insurance contributions in the autumn budget, in order to assist in stabilising the nation's finances;

b) the OBR’s overall assessment that the net effect of UK Government Budget policies will increase growth in the longer term;

c) the UK Treasury's indication that additional funding will be provided to meet the costs of employer national insurance contributions in the public sector;

d) the UK Treasury's confirmation that, in doing so, it will follow the ONS classification, as adopted by previous governments; and

e) as a result of all the measures in the UK Government Budget, 865,000 UK businesses will pay no national insurance contributions at all, and more than half of employers with national insurance contribution liabilities will either see no change or will gain overall next year.

If amendment 1 is agreed, amendment 2 will be de-selected.

Amendment 2 Darren Millar (Clwyd West)

Add as new point after point 4 and renumber accordingly:

Further regrets that the UK Labour Government has broken a manifesto commitment to not raise tax on working people.

The item started at 16.48

Voting on the motion and amendments under this item was deferred until Voting Time.

A vote was taken on the motion without amendment:

NDM8732 Heledd Fychan (South Wales Central)

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes the UK Government’s decision to increase employer national insurance contributions in the autumn budget.

2. Believes the added cost to public sector employers in Wales should be met in full by the UK Treasury.

3. Notes the OBR’s assessment that the increase in employer national insurance contributions is expected to lead to stalled real wage growth at a time when Welsh employment rates are the lowest in the UK.     

4. Regrets the lack of clarity on whether the reimbursement from the UK Treasury will include, amongst other sectors, university employers, GPs and third sector organisations.

5. Calls on the Welsh Government to:

a) press the UK Treasury for the reimbursement of added national insurance contributions costs in the public sector to be based on the Stats Wales and Labour Force Survey definitions of the public sector workforce, which includes amongst other sectors, university employees, GPs and third sector organisations;   

b) provide a comprehensive analysis of the impact that the rise in employer national insurance contributions will have on the jobs market in Wales; and

c) increase the level of business rates relief in the upcoming Welsh budget to mitigate the impact of national insurance contributions rises within the domestic small medium enterprises sector. 

The motion without amendment was not agreed.

The following amendments were tabled:

Amendment 1 Jane Hutt (Vale of Glamorgan)

Delete all and replace with:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes:

a) the UK Government’s decision to increase employer national insurance contributions in the autumn budget, in order to assist in stabilising the nation's finances;

b) the OBR’s overall assessment that the net effect of UK Government Budget policies will increase growth in the longer term;

c) the UK Treasury's indication that additional funding will be provided to meet the costs of employer national insurance contributions in the public sector;

d) the UK Treasury's confirmation that, in doing so, it will follow the ONS classification, as adopted by previous governments; and

e) as a result of all the measures in the UK Government Budget, 865,000 UK businesses will pay no national insurance contributions at all, and more than half of employers with national insurance contribution liabilities will either see no change or will gain overall next year.

A vote was taken on amendment 1:

Amendment 1 was agreed.

As amendment 1 was agreed, amendment 2 was de-selected.

A vote was taken on the motion as amended:

To propose that the Senedd:

1. Notes:

a) the UK Government’s decision to increase employer national insurance contributions in the autumn budget, in order to assist in stabilising the nation's finances;

b) the OBR’s overall assessment that the net effect of UK Government Budget policies will increase growth in the longer term;

c) the UK Treasury's indication that additional funding will be provided to meet the costs of employer national insurance contributions in the public sector;

d) the UK Treasury's confirmation that, in doing so, it will follow the ONS classification, as adopted by previous governments; and

e) as a result of all the measures in the UK Government Budget, 865,000 UK businesses will pay no national insurance contributions at all, and more than half of employers with national insurance contribution liabilities will either see no change or will gain overall next year.

The motion as amended was agreed.

The item started at 17.33

NDM8731 Gareth Davies (Vale of Clwyd)

Progress or preservation: how should responsible government respond to cultural and societal change in Wales?

The item started at 17.38

NDM8731 Gareth Davies (Vale of Clwyd)

Progress or preservation: how should responsible government respond to cultural and societal change in Wales?