Agenda and minutes

Venue: Committee Room 1 - Senedd

Contact: Llinos Madeley 


Senedd.TV: View the webcast

Transcript: Transcript for 12/06/2019 - Children, Young People and Education Committee - Fifth Senedd

Expected timing No. Item



Introductions, apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest


1.1 The Chair welcomed Members. Apologies were received from Jack Sargeant AM, Vikki Howells AM substituted.

(09.30 - 10.30)


Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill - evidence session 12

Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services

Karen Cornish, Deputy Director – Children & Families Division

Emma Gammon, Lawyer


Supporting documents:


2.1 The Committee scrutinised the Deputy Minister.

2.2 The Deputy Minister agreed to provide a note on the following:

  • Information on the contacts made with parents, including details of the messaging used relating to parenting, before the Healthy Child Wales Programme’s 3.5 years pre-school point;
  • A note on the mapping exercise being undertaking in relation to the availability of early years support for parents, to include detail of the mapping process, timescales, and how findings will be taken forward;
  • An update on the Welsh Government’s latest work on out of court disposals, including estimated costs;
  • Figures relating to the frequency with which ‘non-conviction’ information has, and is anticipated to be, disclosed;
  • A note providing further detail on the discussions the Welsh Government referred to holding with the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) in relation to the Bill and the disclosure of ‘non-conviction’ information and;
  • A written response to the following questions not reached:
    • How will the WG ensure this Bill protects the youngest children who are unable to voice their experiences?
    • What assessment has been made of whether women, particularly vulnerable women, will be affected disproportionately by this Bill given that they are the primary care giver in many cases?
    • This Bill’s Equality Impact Assessment says: “…there is some limited evidence that children from some ethnic groups may experience physical punishment more frequently due to the parents’ ethnic or cultural origin”; ”Minority ethnic parents face a number of different barriers to accessing services including discrimination; language and cultural barriers and a lack of awareness of services and how to access them” and that Gypsy and Traveller families “may be reluctant to use services for fear of stigma and prejudice; have a lack of trust in service providers and may also have limited literacy”. Please can the WG outline how significant an issue it believes this to be, an provide practical examples of how it will be mitigating these potential impacts?  




Papers to note


3.1 The papers were noted.

3.2 In relation to paper to note 1, Suzy Davies AM wished to note the difficulty disaggregating cases of reasonable punishment as isolated incidences from cases involving broader patterns of behaviour.


Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services - additional information following the evidence session on 2 May for the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

Supporting documents:


Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services - CAFASS Cymru's response on specific points in relation to the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

Supporting documents:


Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services - Research report on public awareness and opinion of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

Supporting documents:



Motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting.


4.1 The Motion was agreed.

(10.30 - 10.40)


Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill - consideration of the evidence


5.1 The Committee considered the evidence heard during the session.

(10.50 - 11.50)


Inquiry into School Funding - Consideration of the draft report


6.1 The Committee considered the draft report. The draft report would be considered again at the meeting on 26 June.

(11.50 - 12.30)


Consideration of the Committee's Forward Work Programme


7.1 The Committee considered the forward work programme. Members agreed the following for the Autumn term:

·         A scrutiny session with the Minister for Education on the new curriculum as part of its ongoing scrutiny of curriculum reform;

·         A one-off session on early years childcare and education, to include follow up on Flying Start: outreach and matters arising during scrutiny of the Childcare Funding Bill;

·         A short  inquiry into Children’s Rights in Wales;

·         Draft Budget Scrutiny;

·         An inquiry into Education other than at school and Pupil Referral Units;

·         A one-off session on school improvement and raising standards; and

·         Ongoing follow-up work on existing commitments and scrutiny of annual reports.

7.2 The Committee noted the information available about the legislative programme, including the anticipated need to complete Stage 2 proceedings on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill should it progress beyond Stage 1.