Meetings

NDM5345 Jocelyn Davies (South Wales East)

The National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Finance Committee on its inquiry into Asset Management in the Public Sector, which was laid in the Table Office on 23 August 2013.

Note: The Welsh Government's response to the report was laid in the Table Office on 30 October 2013.

Supporting documents:

Finance Committee’s Report

Welsh Government’s response

The item started at 14.53

NDM5345 Jocelyn Davies (South Wales East)

The National Assembly for Wales:

Notes the report of the Finance Committee on its inquiry into Asset Management in the Public Sector, which was laid in the Table Office on 23 August 2013.

The motion was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

FIN(4)-13-13 paper 4

7.1 The Committee considered and approved the draft report, subject to minor drafting changes.

7.1 The Public Services Leadership Group demonstrated its E-Pims system to the Committee.

David Bentley, Head of Asset Management, Chartered Institute Public Finance Accountancy Property

2.1 The Chair welcomed David Bentley, Head of Asset Management, Chartered Institute Public Finance Accountancy (CIPFA) – Property.

2.2 Members questioned the witness.

Action points:

The Committee agreed to write to David Bentley with the following questions, which specifically focus on Asset Management in Wales:

·         The Welsh Government’s capital strategy, the Wales Infrastructure Investment Plan (WIIP), refers to asset management only in terms of recognising the need to make better use of the asset base.  In your view how should asset management in central government, and in the wider public sector, be linked into the WIIP in practice?

·         In your paper, referring to Welsh local government asset management plans you state that most of these make some reference to strategic or policy objectives, but these references must be real in practice.  In your experience, is it the case that such links are not real in practice, and if asset management is viewed as a support service in some quarters, as some of our evidence suggests, how can it be ensured that such strategic links are made more tangible?

·         In your paper in relation to ‘Lessons learnt from Wales’[pages 13-14]  you provide ten examples of where you have provided assistance to local authorities in relation to property management.  Were these all Welsh local authorities and how do these arrangements arise, for example does the authority contact you for assistance with a project?

5.1 The committee considered the evidence received on its inquiry into Asset Management.

Lesley Griffiths AM, Minister for Local Government and Government Business

Piers Bisson - Deputy Director, Public Service Reform Division

Jane Hutt AM, Minister for Finance

Sioned Evans, Deputy Director, Property Division 

2.1 The Chair welcomed Lesley Griffiths AM, Minister for Local Government and Government Business; Jane Hutt AM, Minister for Finance; Sioned Evans, Deputy Director, Property Division; and Deborah Paramore, Programme Manager, Public Service Reform Team.

2.2 The Committee scrutinised the Ministers.

Action points:

The Welsh Government agreed to provide:

·         An update on savings received from the Location Strategy and the management of the administrative estate;

·         Further information on what the Welsh Government is doing to improve the reliability and consistency of reporting information to enable benchmarking and performance management;

·         Examples of where successful Invest to Save bids have been used to address Asset Management issues;

·         Savings made by using the National Assets Working Group approach, proportionate to savings made by the Scottish Futures Trust model.

5.1 The Committee discussed the evidence on its inquiry into Asset Management.

FIN(4) 03-13 – Paper 2 – Welsh Government

Edwina Hart AM, Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science
James Price, Director General, Department for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science
Chris Sutton, Board Member of the Cardiff Central Enterprise Zone and Member of the Business Rates Task and Finish Group

6.1 The Chair welcomed Edwina Hart AM, Minister for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science; James Price, Director General, Department for Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science; Chris Sutton, Board Member of the Cardiff Central Enterprise Zone and Member of the Business Rates Task and Finish Group; and Tim Howard, Head of Property, Business, Enterprise, Technology and Science.

6.2 The Committee scrutinised the Minister.

FIN(4) 03-13 – Paper 1 – Welsh Government

Lesley Griffiths AM, Minister for Health and Social Services
Mark Osland, Deputy Director of Finance, Department for Health, Social Services & Children.
Val Whiting, Head of Capital, Estates and Facilities, H&SC.

5.1 The Chair welcomed Lesley Griffiths AM, Minister for Health and Social Services; Mark Osland, Deputy Director of Finance, Department for Health, Social Services & Children; and Val Whiting, Head of Capital, Estates and Facilities, Health, Social Services and Children.

5.2 The Committee scrutinised the Minister.

Action points:

The Minister for Health and Social Services agreed to provide:

• Further information on the £35m transfer from capital to revenue and the nature of the projects involved which enabled this transfer.
• Further information on the projects currently being developed by the Welsh Government to enhance collaborative arrangements for service delivery.
• A copy of the Estate Code guidance.
• A note on the differences in the legal/financial treatment of land transfers in the NHS as opposed to other sectors.

FIN(4) 03-13 – Paper 1 – NHS Shared Services

Neil Davies, Assistant Director Facilities Service, NHS Wales Shared Services

3.1 The Chair welcomed Neil Davies, Assistant Director Facilities Service, NHS Wales Shared Services.

3.2 Members questioned the witness.

Action points:

NHS Shared Services Partnership agreed to provide:

·         Case studies identifying how the NHS in Wales has collaborated with other public bodies in Asset Management to enhance service delivery.

·         A list of examples where bodies in the NHS in Wales have effectively used the Land Transfer Protocol.

Christopher Chapman, Programme Manager – Efficiency and Procurement, Welsh Local Government Association

Jonathan Fearn, Chair of the joint CLAW / ACES Property & Estates Group

2.1 The Chair welcomed Christopher Chapman, Programme Manager – Efficiency and Procurement, Welsh Local Government Association; and   Jonathan Fearn, Chair of the joint CLAW / ACES Property & Estates Group.

2.2 Members questioned the witnesses.

2.3 The Committee agreed to write to the WLGA with questions which were not raised during proceedings.

FIN(4) 03-13 – Paper 2 – Welsh Council for Voluntary Action

Phil Fiander, Director of Enterprise and Regeneration, WCVA 

Mathew Brown, Communities Investment Fund Manager

Peter Williams,Director, Development Trusts Association Wales

4.1 The Chair welcomed Phil Fiander, Director of Enterprise and Regeneration, WCVA; Mathew Brown, Communities Investment Fund Manager; and Peter Williams, Director, Development Trusts Association Wales.

4.2 The Committee questioned the witnesses.

Action point:

The WCVA agreed to provide:

·         A note outlining examples of organisations in the voluntary sector, where assets are managed as a resource to aid service delivery and where it forms part of their overall strategy.

10.1 The Committee discussed the evidence received on Asset Management and potential witnesses for forthcoming meetings.

10.2 The Committee agreed to prepare a survey to be addressed to Chief Executives of public bodies to gain further evidence for the inquiry.

7.1 The Committee discussed the evidence received on its inquiry into Asset Management.

FIN(4) 02-13 – Paper 2 – Public Service Leadership Group

Dr Helen Paterson, Chair of the Asset Management, Public Service Leadership Group and Chief Executive, Wrexham County Borough Council

Sioned Evans, Public Services Leadership Group

5.1 The Chair welcomed Dr Helen Paterson, Chair of the Asset Management, Public Service Leadership Group and Chief Executive, Wrexham Country Borough Council; and Sioned Evans, Support to Asset Management and Procurement Work Programme, Public Services Leadership Group and Deputy Director, Property Division, Welsh Government.

5.2 The Committee questioned the witnesses.

Action points:

The Public Service Leadership Group agreed to provide:

·         Further information outlining the number of public buildings which may also be used as accommodation;

·         A demonstration to Members on how the e-PIMS public sector property database works;

·         Further information on the nine pilot projects related to asset management and how they were selected;

·         A note on how the PSLG is addressing the recommendation made by the Public Accounts Committee in its report ‘A Picture of Public Services’ to identify and promote examples of good practice from the emergency services to deliver services within budget, make good use of collaboration, and deliver transformational change.

·         An electronic copy of the Welsh Government document ‘State of the Estate’.

·         Further information forecasting the number of properties in the Welsh Government’s administrative estate.

8.1 Members discussed the scope of its inquiry into Asset Management.