Meetings

NDM7246 – Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:

Approves the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

Supporting Document
Presiding Officer’s Statement in accordance with Standing Order 26.50A

The item started at 18.33

A vote was taken on the motion:

NDM7246 – Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.47:

Approves the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

The result was as follows:

The motion was agreed.

The amendments have been grouped for the purposes of debate and the groupings will be debated as follows:

1.   Duty to promote public awareness

1, 2, 3, 4, 5

2. Reporting requirements

6, 11

3. Duty to ensure sufficient funding

7, 8

4. Regulation-making powers in the Bill

9

5.   Commencement

10

Supporting Documents
Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill
Explanatory Memorandum
Marshalled list of amendments
Groupings of Amendments

The item started at 17.40

In accordance with Standing Order 26.36, amendments will be disposed of in the order which the sections and schedules to which they relate, arise in the Bill.

A vote was taken on amendment 1:

Amendment 1 was not agreed

A vote was taken on amendment 2:

Amendment 2 was not agreed.

A vote was taken on amendment 3:

Amendment 3 was not agreed.

A vote was taken on amendment 4:

Amendment 4 was not agreed.

A vote was taken on amendment 5:

Amendment 5 was not agreed.

Amendment 6 was agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

A vote was taken on amendment 7:

Amendment 7 was not agreed.

A vote was taken on amendment 8:

Amendment 8 was not agreed.

A vote was taken on amendment 9:

Amendment 9 was not agreed.

Amendment 11 was agreed, in accordance with Standing Order 12.36.

A vote was taken on amendment 10:

Amendment 10 was not agreed.

All sections and schedules of the Bill were deemed agreed, concluding Stage 3 proceedings.

CLA(5)-02-20 Paper 10 - Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, 7 January 2020

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services

Karen Cornish, Deputy Director Children and Families Division – Welsh Government

Emma Gammon, Lawyer – Welsh Government

In accordance with Standing Order 26.21, the order of consideration for Stage 2 proceedings will be: Sections 1 to 3; Long title.

Documents relevant to Stage 2 proceedings are available on the Bill page.

There will be break at an appropriate time during the proceedings

2.1 In accordance with Standing Order 26.21, the Committee disposed of the following amendments to the Bill:

Amendment 1A (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 1B (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 1C (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 1D (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 1E (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 1 (Julie Morgan)

Amendment 2C (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2A (Suzy Davies)

Amendment 2D (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2E (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2F (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2G (Jane Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2H (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2I (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2J (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2K (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 2B (Suzy Davies) was not moved.

Amendment 2 (Julie Morgan)

Amendment 3A (Suzy Davies)

Amendment 3 (Julie Morgan) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 11 (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 12 (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 4 (Julie Morgan)

Amendment 5 (Julie Morgan)

Amendment 6 (Julie Morgan) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

Amendment 9 (Suzy Davies)

Amendment 13 (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 14 (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 7 (Julie Morgan)

Amendment 10 (Suzy Davies)

Amendment 15 (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 16 (Janet Finch-Saunders)

Amendment 8 (Julie Morgan) was agreed in accordance with Standing Order 17.34(i).

2.2 The Chair confirmed that all sections and schedules of the Bill have been deemed agreed, completing Stage 2 proceedings.

CLA(5)-25-19 – Paper 12 – Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Finance Committee, 13 September 2019

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Finance Committee.

CLA(5)-25-19 – Paper 11 - Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee, 13 September 2019

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee.

CLA(5)-25-19 – Paper 10 – Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, 13 September 2019

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

NDM7131 - Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

The item started at 20.00

Voting on the motion under this item was deferred until Voting Time.

NDM7131 - Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales, for the purposes of any provisions resulting from the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, agrees to any increase in expenditure of a kind referred to in Standing Order 26.69, arising in consequence of the Bill.

A vote was taken on the motion:

The motion was agreed.

NDM7130 - Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:

Agrees to the general principles of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

The Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill and Explanatory Memorandum were laid before the Assembly on 25 March 2019;

The report of Children, Young People and Education Committee on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment (Wales) Bill was laid before the Assembly on 2 August 2019.

Supporting Documents
The Children, Young People and Education Committee Report
The Constitutional and Legislative Affairs Committee Report
Finance Committee Report

The item started at 18.29

Voting on the motion under this item was deferred until Voting Time.

NDM7130 - Julie Morgan (Cardiff North)

To propose that the National Assembly for Wales in accordance with Standing Order 26.11:

Agrees to the general principles of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

The Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill and Explanatory Memorandum were laid before the Assembly on 25 March 2019;

The report of Children, Young People and Education Committee on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment (Wales) Bill was laid before the Assembly on 2 August 2019.

A vote was taken on the motion:

The motion was agreed.

8.1 The Committee considered the draft report. Subject to minor amendments the report was agreed. The Committee agreed to publish its report on 2 August.

CLA(5)-23-19 – Paper 11 – Draft report

CLA(5)-23-19 – Paper 12 – Legal advice note

The Committee considered and agreed its draft report on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.  Members noted the report would be laid by the required deadline of 2 August 2019.

2.1 The Committee considered the draft report. An amended report would be considered at the meeting on 18 July.

CLA(5)-22-19 – Paper 29 – Draft report

CLA(5)-22-19 – Paper 30 – Legal advice note

The Committee considered its draft report on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and agreed to consider a further draft at the next meeting.

Dr Chaitanya Joshi, Senior Data Scientist

Dr Louisa Nolan, Lead Data Scientist

Llinos Madeley, Clerk to the Committee

Sîan Thomas, Senedd Research

5.1 The Committee received a presentation on the evidence received.

Paper 4 – Draft report on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

9.1 The Committee approved the changes to the draft report on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

CLA(5)-20-19 – Paper 9 – Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, 18 June 2019

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

7.1 The Committee considered the key issues, a draft report would be considered on 10 July.

Paper 1 – Draft report on the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

2.1 The Committee agreed the draft report with minor changes.

5.1 The Committee considered the evidence heard during the session.

Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services

Karen Cornish, Deputy Director – Children & Families Division

Emma Gammon, Lawyer

2.1 The Committee scrutinised the Deputy Minister.

2.2 The Deputy Minister agreed to provide a note on the following:

• Information on the contacts made with parents, including details of the messaging used relating to parenting, before the Healthy Child Wales Programme’s 3.5 years pre-school point;
• A note on the mapping exercise being undertaking in relation to the availability of early years support for parents, to include detail of the mapping process, timescales, and how findings will be taken forward;
• An update on the Welsh Government’s latest work on out of court disposals, including estimated costs;
• Figures relating to the frequency with which ‘non-conviction’ information has, and is anticipated to be, disclosed;
• A note providing further detail on the discussions the Welsh Government referred to holding with the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) in relation to the Bill and the disclosure of ‘non-conviction’ information and;
• A written response to the following questions not reached:
• How will the WG ensure this Bill protects the youngest children who are unable to voice their experiences?
• What assessment has been made of whether women, particularly vulnerable women, will be affected disproportionately by this Bill given that they are the primary care giver in many cases?
• This Bill’s Equality Impact Assessment says: “…there is some limited evidence that children from some ethnic groups may experience physical punishment more frequently due to the parents’ ethnic or cultural origin”; ”Minority ethnic parents face a number of different barriers to accessing services including discrimination; language and cultural barriers and a lack of awareness of services and how to access them” and that Gypsy and Traveller families “may be reluctant to use services for fear of stigma and prejudice; have a lack of trust in service providers and may also have limited literacy”. Please can the WG outline how significant an issue it believes this to be, an provide practical examples of how it will be mitigating these potential impacts?  

CLA(5)-18-19 – Paper 5 – Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, 5 June 2019

The Committee noted the correspondence.

Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) Cymru – Wales

·         Barry Hughes, Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales

·         Kwame Biney, Senior Policy Advisor, Crown Prosecution Service

·         Iwan Jenkins, Head of Complex Casework Unit, Crown Prosecution Service Wales

2.1 The Committee heard evidence from the Chief Crown Prosecutor for Wales.

5.1 The Committee considered the evidence heard during the evidence.

The Committee will be meeting with parents and carers in two sessions to discuss the Bill. Attendees have been invited by the Equal Protection Network Cymru and Be Reasonable Wales. This event is not open to the public.  

 1.1 The Committee met with parents and carers to discuss the Bill.

CLA(5)-17-19 – Paper 8 – Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, 25 April 2019

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

CLA(5)-17-19 – Paper 7 – Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services, 5 April 2019

The Committee noted the letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services

Karen Cornish, Deputy Director Children and Families Division

Emma Gammon, Lawyer

CLA(5)-17-19 – Briefing

Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill 2019, as introduced

Explanatory Memorandum

The Committee took evidence from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services.

The Deputy Minister agreed to write to the Committee to provide further clarification on section 1(4) of the Bill.

7.1 The Committee considered the evidence heard during the evidence sessions.

National Independent Safeguarding Board

Jane Randall, Chair – National Independent Safeguarding Board

Jan Pickles, Member – National Independent Safeguarding Board

3.1 The Committee heard evidence from the National Independent Safeguarding Board.

Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH), Royal College of GP’s (RCGP), Royal College of Nursing (RCN)

Dr Lorna Price, Wales’ representative on the RCPCH’s central Child Protection Committee

Dr Rowena Christmas, representative from the RCGP

Michelle Moseley, representative from the RCN

4.1 The Committee heard evidence from representatives of the Royal College of GP’s, the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health.

NHS Wales representatives

Dave Williams, Divisional Director - Family and Therapy Services, Aneurin Bevan University Health Board

Nicola Edwards, Head of Safeguarding, Swansea Bay University Health Board

2.1 The Committee heard evidence from NHS representatives.

2.2 NHS representatives agreed to provide a note on what early intervention support services for families are available within each Heath Board across Wales. 

Business Managers agreed the request from the Committee to extend the stage 1 reporting deadline by 2 weeks.

6.1 The Committee considered the evidence they had heard during sessions.

British Association of Social Workers (BASW) Cymru

Allison Hulmes, National Director for Wales

3.1 The Committee heard evidence from BASW Cymru.

3.2 The Director agreed to provide a note on the following:

·         Evidence about the escalation from activity below the current threshold for the use of the defence of reasonable punishment to activity considered to be assault

·         BASW Cymru’s involvement to date with the development of the Bill

Police representatives

Jeff Cuthbert, Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent and Chair of the All Wales Policing Group

Matt Jukes, Chief Constable for South Wales Police

2.1 The Committee heard evidence from Police representatives.

2.2 Police representatives agreed to provide a note on the current landscape, as they understand it in relation to the development and work of multi-agency safeguarding hubs.

5.1 The Committee considered the evidence received.

Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services 

Karen Cornish, Deputy Director, Children and Families Division

Sarah Canning, Head of Legislation, Research and Parenting Branch

Paper 1 - Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Children, Young People and Education Committee – 5 April 2019

Paper 2 - Letter from the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services to the Chair of the Children, Young People and Education Committee – 25 April 2019

Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill

Explanatory Memorandum

Research Brief

3.1 The Committee took evidence from Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, Deputy Director, Children and Families Division and Sarah Canning, Head of Legislation, Research and Parenting Branch on the financial implications of the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill.

3.2 The Deputy Minister agreed to provide further information on how the number of cases of reasonable punishment reported to the police was estimated and how this links to the number of prosecutions in Wales each year. 

Welsh Local Government Association (WLGA), Association of Directors of Social Services (ADSS) and Association of Directors of Education (ADEW)

Sally Jenkins, Chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and representing ADSS

Alastair Birch, Senior System Leader for Equalities and Safeguarding, Pembrokeshire County Council and representing ADEW

Cllr Huw David, WLGA Spokesperson for Health and Social Care and Leader of Bridgend County Borough Council

2.1 The Committee heard evidence from the WLGA, ADSS and ADEW.

5.1 The Committee considered the evidence.

8.1 The Committee considered the evidence heard during the sessions.

Office of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales

Sally Holland, Children’s Commissioner for Wales

Rachel Thomas, Head of Policy and Public Affairs

5.1 The Committee heard evidence from the Children’s Commissioner.

Equal Protection Network Cymru (Successor organisation to the Children are Unbeatable Cymru alliance)

Andy James, Interim Chair- Equal Protection Network Cymru

Catriona Williams OBE, Chief Executive Officer – Children in Wales

Vivienne Laing, Policy and Public Affairs Manager – NSPCC Wales

Menna Thomas, Assistant Director (Policy) – Barnardo’s Cymru

Dr Katherine Shelton, Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Cardiff University and member of Academics for Equal Protection

4.1 The Committee heard evidence from the Equal Protection Network Cymru.

4.2 They agreed to provide a note on the following:

• details of the evidence cited about the impact of physical and non-physical punishment of children;
• details of relevant cases in the Republic of Ireland and;
• details of the evidence cited as rebutting claims that Swedish data had shown a correlation between changes to the law on reasonable punishment and an increase in child-on-child violence.

Be Reasonable Wales

Jamie Gillies, spokesman for Be Reasonable

Sally Gobbett, Parent campaigner

3.1 The Committee heard evidence from Be Reasonable Wales.

3.2 They agreed to provide a note on the following:

·         details of the evidence cited about the impact of physical and non-physical punishment of children;

·         further detail on the assertion that the defence of reasonable punishment had been invoked three times in nine years in England, including whether wider charges were being brought at the time in those individual cases and;

·         further information on prosecution rates in relation to physical punishment in New Zealand.

Welsh Government

Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services

Karen Cornish, Deputy Director – Children & Families Division

Emma Gammon, Lawyer

2.1 The Committee heard evidence from the Deputy Minister.

2.2 The Deputy Minister agreed to provide further clarification on whether the Explanatory Memorandum’s estimated 274 cases of reasonable punishment reported to the police in Wales per year included smacking only, or smacking as part of a wider range of behaviours.

2.1 The Committee received a briefing on the Bill.

3.1 The Committee considered its approach to the Bill. Members agreed the following:

·         The draft terms of reference for scrutinising the general principles of the Bill at Stage 1;

·         To issue an open call for evidence and write to key stakeholders for written evidence;

·         A schedule of witnesses for oral evidence sessions; and

·         To carry out wider engagement activities with the Welsh Youth Parliament and to invite the two main campaign groups (Children are Unbeatable and Be Reasonable Wales) to facilitate focus groups between Members and adults.

Business Managers confirmed their in principle decision of 5 March to refer the Bill to the Children, Young People and Education Committee for Stage 1 consideration with a reporting deadline of 19 July. Business Managers agreed a deadline of 8 November 2019 for Stage 2 committee proceedings.