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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee

08/03/2017

 

 

Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts

 

 

 

 

Cynnwys
Contents

 

.........

3....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

 

4....... Dyfodol S4C: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 3
The Future of S4C: Evidence Session 3

 

54..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

                                                                

 

 

 

 

 

Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.

 

The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.

 

 

 

 

Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance

 

Hannah Blythyn
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Suzy Davies
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Bethan Jenkins
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)

Dai Lloyd
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Jeremy Miles
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

Lee Waters
Bywgraffiad|Biography

Llafur
Labour

 

Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance

 

Dr Ruth McElroy

Uned Ymchwil Cyfathrebu, Diwylliant ac Astudiaethau’r Cyfryngau, Prifysgol De Cymru

Communication, Cultural and Media Studies Research Unit, University of South Wales

Huw Marshall

Ymgynghorydd Cyfryngau a Strategydd Digidol

Media Consultant and Digital Strategist

 

Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance

 

Steve George

Clerc

Clerk

Adam Vaughan

Dirprwy Glerc

Deputy Clerk

Robin Wilkinson

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

 

Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:30.
The meeting began at 09:30.

 

Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest

 

[1]          Bethan Jenkins: Diolch, a chroeso i’r Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu. Croeso, Aelodau, yma y bore yma. Os bydd yna larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff. Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel. Mae’r Cynulliad yn gweithredu yn ddwyieithog, mae clustffonau ar gael i glywed y cyfieithiad ar y pryd ac i addasu’r sain ar gyfer pobl sy’n drwm eu clyw. Mae’r cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael ar sianel 1, a gellir chwyddo’r sain at sianel 0. Peidiwch â chyffwrdd â’r botymau ar y meicroffonau, gall hyn amharu ar y system sain, a gofalwch bod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you and welcome to the Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee. Welcome, Members, this morning. If the fire alarm should sound, everyone should leave the room through the fire exits and follow the directions of the ushers and staff. We do not expect a test this morning. Can everyone switch their mobile phones to silent? The Assembly operates bilingually, and headsets are available so that you can hear the interpretation and for amplification of sound for people who are hard of hearing. The interpretation is on channel 1 and the amplification is on channel 0. Please don’t touch the microphones because that can interfere with the audio system, and please wait for the red light to come on before speaking.

 

[2]          A all Aelodau plîs ddatgan unrhyw fuddiannau sydd ganddyn nhw? Dim byd. Diolch yn fawr iawn. Ymddiheuriadau a dirprwyon. Ymddiheuriadau gan Neil Hamilton a gan Dawn Bowden, ac nid ydynt yn anfon unrhyw un yn eu lle.

Does any Member have a declaration of interest to make? I see there are none. Thank you very much. We’ve received apologies from Neil Hamilton and from Dawn Bowden, but they are not sending anyone in their place.

 

09:31

 

Dyfodol S4C: Sesiwn Dystiolaeth 3
The Future of S4C: Evidence Session 3

 

[3]          Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn symud ymlaen, felly, at eitem 2 ar yr agenda, sef dyfodol S4C, sesiwn dystiolaeth 3 ar y mater yma. Rydym ni’n gwybod bod yna adolygiad yn mynd i ddigwydd gan Lywodraeth San Steffan, ac felly rydym ni am gymryd tystiolaeth er mwyn cymryd rhan yn yr adolygiad hwnnw. Diolch i Huw Marshall—mae’n rhaid i fi gael y teitl yn gywir—ymgynghorydd  rhyng-gyfryngol a strategydd digidol, a Dr Ruth McElroy, uned ymchwil cyfathrebu, diwylliant ac astudiaethau’r cyfryngau, Prifysgol De Cymru. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi’ch dau am ddod yma heddiw. Y cwestiwn cyntaf sydd gen i yw: a allwch chi esbonio i ni beth yw pwysigrwydd S4C yn eich tyb chi? A ydych chi’n credu bod yr arian cyhoeddus yn ddigonol, neu a ydych chi’n credu y dylem ni ei agor lan yn fwy i’r farchnad? A sut wedyn ydych chi’n gweld S4C yn cael ei siapio yn y dyfodol gyda’r adolygiad sydd yn mynd i fod yn digwydd yn San Steffan? Diolch.

 

Bethan Jenkins: We will move on, therefore, to item 2 on the agenda, and that is the future of S4C, evidence session 3 on this issue. We know that a review will be undertaken by the Westminster Government, so we want to take evidence to be part of that review. I would like to thank Huw Marshall—I need to get the title correct—the consultant digital strategist, and Dr Ruth McElroy from the communication, cultural and media studies research unit at the University of South Wales. Thank you very much, both of you, for joining us today. So, the first question that I have is: can you explain to us the importance of S4C in your view? Do you believe that the public funding it receives is sufficient, or do you think that we should open it up more to the market? And can you tell us how you see S4C being shaped in the future with the review that is going to be undertaken at Westminster? Thank you.

[4]          Dr McElroy: Mwy nag un cwestiwn yn fanna. [Chwerthin.] Mi wnaf i gychwyn.

Dr McElroy: More than one question there. [Laughter.] I’ll begin, and then you can come in.

 

[5]          Mr Marshall: Mi gei di fynd yn gyntaf.

 

Mr Marshall: You can go first.

[6]          Dr McElroy: Rydw i’n meddwl ei fod yn hanfodol bwysig ein bod ni’n cychwyn efo’r cyd-destun o beth ydy cylch gwaith S4C, a beth ydy cyfraniad S4C i Gymru ac i’r iaith Gymraeg. Achos, oni bai ein bod ni’n gwbl glir ar y sail honno, nid oes modd inni drafod beth ddylai’r cyllid fod, a sut strwythur sydd angen arnom ni—sut drefn lywodraethol sydd ei hangen arnom ni, felly. Felly, i mi, rydw i’n gweld bod rôl S4C yn hanfodol bwysig yn y lle cyntaf oherwydd yr iaith. Rydw i’n meddwl bod hynny—i fi, mae’n fy nharo i yn rhywbeth gwbl amlwg, ond wedi dweud hynny, rydw i’n meddwl ei fod e’n werth ail-ddweud hynny. Hynny yw, os ydy’r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru wir yn mynd i gyflawni’r nod o gael 1 miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg, mae S4C, rydw i’n credu, yn hanfodol bwysig yn hynny. Mae gennym ni ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus eraill yng Nghymru, beth sydd yn wahanol o ran S4C ydy’r iaith. Felly, i fi, mae hynny yn gorfod bod yn sail i bob dim mae S4C yn gwneud. Wedi dweud hynny, nid dyna’r unig beth mae S4C yn gwneud, wrth gwrs, ac mae yna rôl ddiwylliannol fwy eang, yn fwy na’r iaith ei hun, felly, a rôl economaidd hefyd. Economaidd, nid jest o ran beth sydd eisoes wedi digwydd o ran gwaith cynhyrchu S4C, ond hefyd o edrych i’r dyfodol, y gwaith digidol mwy sydd ar gael, a bod yna fodd i S4C, rydw i’n credu, i fod yn rhan o’r datblygiad hwnnw hefyd. Nid ydw i’n siŵr os—. Wrth i mi sôn am ddigidol, rydw i’n troi atat ti yn naturiol.

 

Dr McElroy: I think it is essential that we begin with the context of what S4C’s remit is, and what S4C’s contribution is to Wales and to the Welsh language. Because, unless we are entirely clear on that, there is no way that we can discuss what the funding should be, and what kind of structure is needed—what governance arrangements are needed, therefore. So, for me, I see that S4C’s role is essential, first of all, because of the Welsh language. I think that that—for me, that strikes me as something that’s completely obvious, but having said that, I do think it’s something that needs to be restated. Because if the Welsh Government is truly going to achieve its aim of having 1 million Welsh speakers, then I think that S4C is crucial to that. We do have other public broadcasters in Wales, but what is different in terms of S4C is the Welsh language and, for me, that has to be the basis of everything that S4C does. Now, having said that, that is not the only thing that’s important about S4C, of course, and it has a cultural role more broadly that goes beyond the Welsh language, and an economic role as well. In terms of the economic role, we’re not just talking about what’s happened so far with S4C’s production work, but in looking ahead, more digital work will be available, and there is a way, I believe, for S4C to be part of that development also. I don’t know if—. When I mention digital, I turn to you naturally.

[7]          Mr Marshall: Ie, wel, rydw i wedi paratoi ymateb—rydw i’n meddwl bod gennych chi gopïau ohono—a beth rydw i’n trio cymryd ydy safbwynt ychydig bach yn wahanol i’r bobl a fydd yn rhoi tystiolaeth, ar yr angen i greu cynnwys perthnasol yn yr iaith Gymraeg, a sut mae’r cynnwys hwnnw’n cael ei ddarparu, boed hynny drwy gorff fel S4C, neu gorff o’r newydd a fydd yn cynnig cynnwys o’r newydd. Mae’r ystadegau yn dangos, rŵan, fod y to ifanc, y millennials, y bobl o dan 35, yr oedran yna, yn gwyro i ffwrdd o deledu traddodiadol ac yn ymwneud â chynnwys gwahanol. Mae gen i ddwy o enod fy hun sydd byth a beunydd eisiau gwylio walkthroughs Minecraft ar y set deledu yn y cartref, neu ar dabled. So, mae eu cael nhw i ymwneud efo cynnwys yn her, ond mae eu cael nhw i ymwneud efo cynnwys yn y Gymraeg yn hanfodol. Dyna pam rydw i’n meddwl ei fod yn bwysig ein bod ni yn trafod S4C, ond ein bod ni’n edrych ar fodelau ehangach tu hwnt i’r ffordd mae S4C yn bodoli ar hyn o bryd er mwyn sicrhau bod cynnwys perthnasol mae’r gynulleidfa eisiau ei wylio ac ymwneud efo fo yn cael ei greu ac yn cael ei ddosbarthu.

 

Mr Marshall: Well, I’ve prepared a response—I believe you have copies of that—and perhaps I take a slightly different standpoint to those people who will be giving you evidence, on the need to create relevant content in the Welsh language, and how that content is provided, whether that’s through a body such as S4C, or a new body that would include new content. Because statistics show that the millennials, young people, those under 35, are actually rearing away from traditional television and they are involved with different content. I’ve got two daughters myself and they’re always wanting to watch Minecraft walkthroughs on the television at home or on a tablet. So, getting them to engage with content is a challenge, but getting them to engage with Welsh language content is essential. That’s why I think it’s important that we do discuss S4C, but that we look at broader models beyond the traditional S4C to ensure that relevant content that the audience wants to view and to be engaged with is created and distributed.

Bethan Jenkins: O ran y gynulleidfa, rydych chi wedi dechrau siarad am hynny, a ydych chi’n credu o dan y system bresennol, fel y mae hi, fod S4C yn gallu perfformio o ran ceisio apelio at y gynulleidfa ar draws y sbectrwm? Er enghraifft, rŷm ni’n gwybod eu bod nhw wedi creu rhaglen YouTube newydd ar gyfer pobl ifanc. A ydy hynny’n dda? A ydy e’n ddigonol? Os nad yw’n ddigonol, beth gellir ei wneud fel rhan o’r adolygiad yma?

 

Bethan Jenkins: In terms of the audience, because you’ve started talking about that, do you believe that under the current system, S4C is capable of performing in terms of trying to appeal to a broad age range of viewers across the spectrum? For example, we know that they have created a new YouTube channel for young people? Is that good? Is it sufficient? If it’s not, what can be done under this review?

 

[8]          Dr McElroy: Mae’n dda ynddi ei hun, ond rydw i’n credu beth sydd angen ydy sylweddoli bod yna her i ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus yn gyfan gwbl, ar draws y byd i fod yn onest. Mae’r tirlun wedi’i drawsnewid, ac yn arbennig pan rydym yn edrych ar bobl yn eu harddegau ac oedolion ifanc, nid ydyn nhw’n troi at y teledu. Rydw i’n gwybod hynny, wedi imi ofyn i ddosbarth blwyddyn gyntaf, ‘Faint ohonoch chi sy’n gwylio’r BBC neu S4C?’—ychydig iawn ohonyn nhw sy’n dweud eu bod nhw’n gwneud hynny yn rheolaidd.

 

Dr McElroy: It’s a good thing in itself, but what I believe that we need to realise is that there is a challenge for public service broadcasters throughout the world. The landscape has changed, and particularly when we look at teenagers and young adults, they don’t turn to the television. I know that from asking a first-year class, ‘How many of you watch S4C or BBC?’ and very few of them said that they did that regularly.

 

[9]          Nid wyf yn meddwl bod yna dystiolaeth cryf iawn, eto—o bosib, fe wnei di anghytuno efo hyn, Huw—y daw’r rheini’n ôl i S4C ac i’r BBC. Ond, hyd y gwelaf i, mae’r tirlun wedi’i drawsnewid yn gyfan gwbl, ac nid yw hynny, ynddi’i hun, yn mynd i newid. Mae Netflix, Amazon ac ati—yr SVODs—mae’r rheini’n siŵr o fod yn rhan hanfodol bwysig yn y dyfodol. Felly, i fi, y broblem fwyaf i S4C ar hyn o bryd ydy sicrhau bod pobl ifanc yn aros efo S4C ar ôl rhaglenni plant bach. Felly, i fi—ac mae hyn eto’n mynd yn ôl at rôl ieithyddol S4C a rôl addysgol S4C. Mae’n rhaid bod yna strategaeth glir ar sut i ddefnyddio digidol er mwyn gwneud yn siŵr bod deunydd addysgol a deunydd adloniant, felly, ar gael ar gyfer pobl ifanc, a’u bod nhw hefyd nid jest yn gynulleidfa. Hynny yw, rydym yn dal i sôn am gynulleidfa fel pobl sy’n gwylio ac yn troi’r set deledu ymlaen ac yn eistedd ar y soffa. Mae hynny’n dal i fod yn bwysig—mae’r rhan fwyaf ohonom yn dal i wneud hynny—ond rydym ni’n gyd-gynhyrchwyr, rwy’n credu. Pan rŷm ni’n edrych ar bobl ifanc, dyna lle mae’r datblygiad a’r her fwyaf. Hyd y gwelaf i, mae S4C wedi gwneud cryn dipyn, ond mae angen gwneud mwy, ac mae’n feddylfryd yn fwy na jest unrhyw opsiwn arbennig, neu unrhyw brosiect unigol.

 

I don’t think that there’s strong evidence as yet—perhaps Huw will disagree with me—that they will return to S4C and to the BBC. But, as far as I can see, the landscape has completely transformed, and that, in itself, isn’t going to change. Netflix, Amazon and so forth—the SVODs—are certainly going to be a very important part of this in the future. So, to me, the greatest problem for S4C at present is to ensure that young people stay with S4C after the programmes for toddlers and young children. Of course, this goes back to S4C’s linguistic and educational role. There has to be a clear strategy on how to use digital in order to ensure that educational material and entertainment content is available to young people, and that they, also, are not just an audience. We’re still talking about an audience as people who turn the televisions set on and sit on the sofa, and that is still important—the majority of us still do that—but we’re all co-producers, I think. When we look at young people, that is where the development and the greater challenge lies. As far as I can see, S4C has done quite a bit, but it needs to do more, and it’s a mentality more than just a particular option, or an individual project.

 

[10]      Mr Marshall: Rwy’n meddwl bod llythrennedd yn bwysig. Mae Cyw yn cael ei weld fel gwasanaeth rhagorol; mae’n un o’r gwasanaethau gorau o’i fath yn y byd, ac mae eisiau inni ganmol a bod yn ymwybodol o hynny. Ond, y broblem efo rhywbeth fel yna ydy, unwaith maen nhw’n cyrraedd yr oedran o ran llythrennedd a medru darllen, yn hanesyddol, unwaith maen nhw’n medru darllen EPGs, maen nhw’n sylweddoli, ‘O, mae yna fyd gwahanol o raglenni; rydw i’n medru mynd i ffwrdd o S4C i mewn i lefydd eraill.’

 

Mr Marshall: I think literacy is important. Cyw is viewed as an excellent service; it’s one of the best services of its kind in the whole of the world, and we need to praise that and be aware of that. But the problem with something like that is that, once they reach the age of literacy and can read, and once they can read an electronic programme guide, they realise: ‘Oh, there’s a different world of programmes; I can leave S4C and go to other places.’

[11]      Ond, mae llythrennedd digidol, rŵan, o ran plant, yn golygu nad ydyn nhw ddim jest yn mynd i ffwrdd o sianeli ar deledu; maen nhw’n medru mynd i mewn i ffeindio stwff ar YouTube a phethau fel yna. Felly, mae eu llythrennedd digidol nhw wedi datblygu i’r pwynt lle nad ydych chi ddim jest yn cystadlu, rŵan, o ran gofod teledu. Mae’r tirwedd digidol mor eang—. Fel yr oedd Ruth wedi cyfeirio ato, yr hen ystyriaeth oedd bod pobl yn gadael yn ifanc ac wedyn, fe wnân nhw ddod yn ôl pan maen nhw’n hŷn. Rydw i’n wirioneddol poeni nad yw hynny’n mynd i ddigwydd yn y dyfodol. Maen nhw’n mynd i adael, ac maen nhw’n mynd i lefydd fel Netflix. Ocê, fe wnaiff rhai ohonyn nhw ddod yn ôl, ond os ydym ni’n cymryd y meddylfryd yna o obeithio—‘O, peidiwch â phoeni, byddan nhw nôl mewn ychydig o flynyddoedd pan maen nhw’n hŷn’—bydd o’n rhy hwyr erbyn hynny.

 

But, digital literacy, now, means that children don’t just go away from television channels; they go in and find material on YouTube and so on. So, their digital literacy has developed to the point that you’re not just competing, now, as regards television space. The digital landscape is so broad—. As Ruth referred to, the old consideration was that people would leave at a young age, and then return when they were older. But I’m truly concerned that that’s not going to happen in the future. They’re going to leave and they will go and watch Netflix. Okay, some of them will come back, but if we take that mentality—‘Oh, don’t worry, they’ll be back in some years’ time when they’re older’—it’ll be too late by then.

[12]      Mae’n rhaid inni sicrhau, yn enwedig efo 60 y cant o blant yn mynd i addysg Gymraeg o gartrefi di-Gymraeg, pan maen nhw’n gadael yr ysgol, sut maen nhw’n ymwneud efo’r iaith? Y cyfryngau—nid jest teledu, ond y cyfryngau—ydy sut rydym yn medru eu cyrraedd nhw. Felly, sut ydym ni’n sicrhau bod y cynnwys—ac rwy’n cynnwys pethau fel gwasanaethau newyddion o fewn hynny—yn bodoli yn y Gymraeg ar eu cyfer nhw?

We have to ensure, particularly with 60 per cent of children who attend Welsh-medium education being from non-Welsh speaking homes, when they leave school, how will they engage with the language? It’s through the media, and not just television that we can actually reach them. So, we have to ensure that the content—and I include things like news services within that—exists in Welsh for them.

 

 

[13]      Bethan Jenkins: Huw, a allech chi jest esbonio tipyn bach? Yn eich tystiolaeth, rydych chi’n gofyn ai’r model teledu yw’r model gorau ar gyfer y dyfodol. A allech chi jest esbonio pam rydych chi’n meddwl bod hynny’n mynd i fod yn wahanol i beth sy’n digwydd nawr?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Huw, could you just explain a little? In your evidence, you talk about whether the television model is the best model for the future. Could you just explain why you think that that is going to be different to what currently happens?

[14]      Mr Marshall: Wel, rwy’n ffodus; yn y gwaith rwy’n ei wneud rŵan, rwy’n gwneud tipyn o fynd allan a siarad efo pobl mewn cynadleddau, ac rwy’n cymryd mantais o’r cyfleoedd hynny i siarad efo cynulleidfaoedd. A phan rwyf wedi bod yn siarad efo cynulleidfaoedd ifanc ac wedi gofyn iddyn nhw faint sy’n gwylio teledu unionlin—linear—mae’r ffigyrau yn mynd yn llai. Maen nhw’n dal i wylio cynnwys sydd wedi deillio o deledu’n wreiddiol, ond ar blatfformau eraill. Felly, os ydych chi’n meddwl bod pobl yn gwneud hynny—. Ond maen nhw, rŵan, yn mynd i mewn i bethau fel Netflix. Maen nhw’n mynd i mewn i byrth cynnwys. Maen nhw’n mynd i mewn i YouTube. Mae YouTube yn bot mawr o gynnwys; mae lot ohono fo’n rybish, ond lot o stwff da arno fo. Beth sydd angen sicrhau ydy sut rydych chi’n mynd i ddarganfod y stwff da yna.

 

Mr Marshall: Well, I’m fortunate; in the work that I do now, I go out and talk to people and attend conferences, and I take advantage of those opportunities to speak to audiences. When I’ve talked to young audiences and asked them how many of them actually watch linear television, well, the figures are contracting. They still actually view content that has emanated from the television in other formats. So, when you think that people are doing that, and they are doing that now; they’re going into things like Netflix and they’re going into content portals. They’re going into YouTube. YouTube is a large pot of content; a lot of it is rubbish, but there is a great deal of good stuff there as well. What we need to ensure is that they can discover that good stuff. 

[15]      Felly, o ran symud ymlaen, mae’n bwysig bod yna fodd i fynd i mewn er mwyn medru darganfod cynnwys. Mae’n beth da bod S4C ar yr iPlayer, ond maen nhw ar blatfform darlledwr arall; nid ydyn nhw’n cael yr un blaenoriaeth. Nid yw eu cynnwys nhw ddim yn cael yr un flaenoriaeth o fewn yr iPlayer ac nid yw darganfod cynnwys mor rhwydd.

 

So, in terms of moving forwards, it’s important that they can discover the content. I think it’s a good think that S4C is on iPlayer, but they’re on a different broadcaster’s platform; they don’t take priority. Their content doesn’t get the same priority within iPlayer and finding their content, then, isn’t as easy.

[16]      Pwynt arall rwy’n ei wneud, rŵan, ydy defnyddio technoleg adnabod lleferydd. Rwy’n siarad efo Apple TV i ffeindio cynnwys. Trïwch wneud hynny efo’r iPlayer ar Apple TV i ffeindio cynnwys Cymraeg. Mae’n amhosibl, achos nad yw’r dechnoleg ddim yn bodoli. Felly mae pethau fel yna yn achosi dirywiad, nid jest o ran defnydd yr iaith mewn cartrefi, oherwydd yr iaith i siarad efo technoleg yw Saesneg, ond hefyd mae’n golygu bod darganfod y cynnwys yna yn anodd. Mae’n gwneud y job yn anoddach byth er mwyn sicrhau—. Hyd yn oed os ydych chi’n gwneud y rhaglen gorau posibl, sut ydych chi’n sicrhau bod pobl yn gwybod ei fod o ymlaen?

 

Another point I’d like to make, then, is about using voice recognition technology. I talk to Apple TV to find content. If you try and find Welsh content on the iPlayer on Apple TV, well, it’s impossible, because the technology doesn’t exist. Things like that cause a decline, not just in terms of the use of the Welsh language in households, because the language of speaking to technology is English, but also it means that finding that content is difficult. It makes the job even more difficult to ensure—. Even when you produce the best programme possible, how do you ensure that people know that it’s on?

[17]      Dyna pam, rydw i’n meddwl, fod eisiau canmol S4C o ran y gwaith maen nhw wedi’i wneud efo Facebook ac efo Sianel Pump. Mae’n rhaid imi ddatgan rhywfaint o ddiddordeb achos mai fi oedd yn gyfrifol am y rheini pan oeddwn i yn S4C. Ond mae wedi dangos bod y strategaeth yna o roi cynnwys ffurf fer ar Facebook—mae’r ystadegau yn dangos bod hynny’n gweithio. Ond nid ydym ni ddim yn rhoi’r un gwerth i hynny fel currency ag ydym ni o ran y ffigurau teledu. Rydym ni’n obsessed efo’r ffigyrau dros nos a ffigyrau cyrhaeddiad. Nid ydym ni ddim yn drilio i mewn i hyn yn ddigonol o ran beth ydy oedran y bobl yna, achos ein bod ni’n gwybod mai 65-plus ydy’r mwyafrif. Rydw i’n mynd adref i weld fy mam yn Wrecsam, ac mae S4C ymlaen. Mae’n grêt, ond mae’n rhywbeth sydd ymlaen yn y cartref. Mae’r nifer o gartrefi lle mae hwn yn bodoli yn mynd yn llai wrth i’r gynulleidfa yna fynd yn hŷn a diflannu. Dyna ydy’r her rydym ni angen ymateb iddo fo.

 

That’s why we need to praise the work that S4C has done with Sianel Pump and Facebook. I have to declare an interest, because I was responsible for those when I worked for S4C. But it has shown that that strategy of putting short-form content on Facebook has worked—the statistics show that. But we don’t give things the same value as a currency as we do with television programme figures. We’re obsessed with the overnight figures and reach and so on, but we don’t drill down sufficiently in terms of the age of those people, because we know that the majority are 65-plus. I go and visit my mother in Wrexham and S4C is on, and that’s great. It’s on in her home. But the number of homes where that is actually the case is reducing, and is in danger of disappearing altogether as the audience gets older and starts to disappear. That’s the challenge we’re responding to on that.

 

[18]      Dyna pam rydw i’n meddwl, efo’r ymgynghoriad yma, mae’n bwysig—. Mae eisiau inni edrych ar beth ydy’r opsiynau eraill sydd yn bodoli. A oes yna fodd i edrych ar greu porth cynnwys cenedlaethol Cymraeg—

 

That’s why I think this consultation is important. We need to look at the alternative options that exist. Is it possible to create a national Welsh content portal—

[19]      Bethan Jenkins: Sori, roeddwn i’n methu â dy glywed di’n iawn. Roedd yn fy hala fi yn nuts.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, I couldn’t hear you properly there. It was driving me nuts.

[20]      Mr Marshall: —lle mae’r cynnwys yma ar gael, ac hefyd tu allan i ffiniau’r hawliau traddodiadol? Y broblem fawr ar hyn o bryd yw bod pobl yn dweud eu bod nhw’n hwyr yn dod i gyfres. Maen nhw’n mynd i mewn i Clic, neu’r iPlayer, a chwilio am gyfres, ac mae hanner y gyfres wedi mynd, achos mae wedi mynd allan o amser. Mae yna gost i hynny. Ond mae yna fodd gwneud hynny, a dyna pam mae eisiau blaenoriaethu o ran ariannu digonol. Sut ydych chi’n sicrhau bod yr arian ar gael i wneud yn siŵr bod—nid repeats, ond bod yna fodd i bobl dal i fyny â’r cyfresi? Achos nid oes yna ddim byd yn waeth na phan rwyt ti’n gweld ar gyfryngau cymdeithasol: ‘Mae hwn yn gyfres dda, fe wna i roi go ar hwn. O, rydw i’n methu ei wylio fo, rydw i ond yn medru gwylio’r bennod olaf.’

 

Mr Marshall: —where this content is available, but also, outwith the boundaries of traditional viewing? The problem at the moment is people saying that they are late coming into a series. People look for a series on Clic but then half of the series has gone because it’s out of time. There is a cost to that. But it’s possible to do this. That’s why we need to prioritise adequate funding. How do you ensure that the funding is available to ensure—not that there are repeats, but that it’s possible for people to catch up with the series? Because there’s nothing worse than when you see on social media: ‘This is a great series. I’m going to start watching it, but I can’t watch it all, I can only watch the last episode.’

 

 

[21]      Bethan Jenkins: Mae Suzy Davies nawr yn mynd i ofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn â chylch gwaith statudol S4C. Diolch.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Suzy Davies is now going to ask questions about S4C’s statutory remit. Thank you.

 

[22]      Suzy Davies: It’s pretty clear from what you’ve already said that you think the current remit of S4C is far too narrow and far too limiting. You’ve given us an indication of the type of things that you’d like them to be able to do. Can I ask about two specific things? One is whether the current remit, which limits the work of S4C to be serving audiences wholly or mainly in Wales, remains realistic—or over-limiting, if you like. Secondly, this issue of quality. You mentioned that anyone can look at YouTube, and there’s a load of rubbish on there, but people do watch the rubbish. How important is quality? I appreciate, Dr McElroy, that you might not have seen Huw Marshall’s evidence, but you mentioned what goes on with Basque television and where there’s what I think looks like a very different view of what public service broadcasting looks like. So, if you could cover those two—quality and reach.

 

[23]      Mr Marshall: I think if you’ve got children—

 

[24]      Suzy Davies: Mae’r Gymraeg yn fine.

 

Suzy Davies: Welsh is fine.

[25]      Mr Marshall: I bobl sydd ddim efo plant, os ydych chi’n gweld beth maen nhw eisiau gwylio, mae’n nhw’n gwylio rhywun yn gwneud beth sy’n cael ei alw yn ‘toy unboxing’—tynnu’r teganau allan a chwarae efo nhw. Mae ansawdd hwnnw—mae ansawdd lot ohono fo yn safonol o ran yr ansawdd, ond o ran y cynnwys, mae’n gynnwys y mae’r plant eisiau ymwneud efo fo. Mae’n rhaid i ni sylweddoli; os mai dyna beth maen nhw eisiau gwylio, sut ydym ni’n sicrhau bod hynny ar gael yn y Gymraeg? Dyna lle mae’n anodd. Nid rôl darlledwr traddodiadol ydy gwneud y math yna o beth. Mae yna rôl ar gyfer darlledwyr i gomisiynu cynnwys a chreu cynnwys, ond mae’n rhaid i ni feddwl am y byd arall yma o gynnwys.

 

Mr Marshall: For people who don’t have children, in terms of what children like to watch, they like to watch someone doing what’s called ‘toy unboxing’—taking toys out and playing with them. A lot of that is of a high quality, but as regards the content, the children want to engage with it and get involved with it. We have to realise; if that’s what they want to see, how do we ensure that that’s available in Welsh? That’s why it’s difficult. It isn’t the role of the traditional broadcaster to do that kind of thing. There is a role for such content to be commissioned, but we have to think about this other world of content.

[26]      Un o’r pethau efo Sianel Pump—un o’r syniadau yn fanna, gobeithio, yw eu bod nhw’n ysgogi pobl i greu eu cynnwys eu hunain. Achos mae yna lot o UGC yn cael ei greu, mae lot o flogwyr, lot o bobl poblogaidd, ond maen nhw yn Saesneg. Rydw i’n falch o ddweud bod yna gynnydd wedi bod yn y rhain yn y Gymraeg, ond sut ydym ni’n hyrwyddo’r rheini? Sut ydym ni’n sicrhau eu bod nhw’n cyrraedd cynulleidfaoedd?

 

One of the things with Sianel Pump and one of the ideas is that it motivates people to create their own content. There is lots of user-generated content being created, and lots of bloggers, and I’m pleased to say there has been an increase in that in Welsh, but how do we promote that, and how do we ensure that they get to the right audience?

 

[27]      Roeddem ni’n sôn am EITB. Roeddwn i’n lwcus i fynd allan yna i weld y model o ran darlledwr cyhoeddus. O ran eu model nhw, maen nhw yn gwario arian ar raglenni, a buaswn i’n meddwl bod cost yr awr ar gyfer eu rhaglenni drudfawr adloniant nhw yn uwch na beth mae S4C yn ei wario. Ond mae’r ffaith eu bod nhw’n berchen ar eu hadnoddau eu hunain, efo stiwdios eu hunain yn Bilbao, yn golygu eu bod nhw’n medru cael rhaglenni trafod sydd yn ymwneud efo’r gynulleidfa. Efallai nad yw’r ffigyrau yn anferthol ar eu cyfer nhw, ond o leiaf mae’n rhoi cyfle i bobl ifanc a phobl hŷn i drafod pynciau ac i gael y llwyfan yma ar gyfer y drafodaeth yna. O ran y rôl statudol, dyna beth sy’n bwysig—sut ydym ni’n sicrhau'r rôl gyhoeddus yna er mwyn cynnal sgyrsiau yn y Gymraeg i drafod pynciau a bod yna ofod i wneud hynny.

 

We were talking about EITB. I was lucky to go out to see a model of a public service broadcaster there, and from the point of view of their model, they do spend money on programmes, and I would think that the hourly cost for their expensive entertainment programmes is much higher than what S4C spends, but the fact that they own their own studios out in Bilbao allows them to do it. They can have talk shows that engage with the audience. Maybe the figures for those aren’t huge, but at least it gives that platform for that discussion, From the point of view of the statutory role, that’s what’s important—how do we actually ensure that public role in order to hold the conversations in Welsh about these issues and that there is a space to do so.

 

09:45

 

[28]      Dr McElroy: Os gallaf i fynd yn ôl i’r cwestiwn o ran y cylch gwaith yn y lle cyntaf, ac yn arbennig i feddwl am  hynny—ai gwasanaeth ar ein cyfer ni yng Nghymru, neu y tu hwnt i Gymru, neu yn rhyngwladol ydyw? Rwy’n meddwl ei fod yn hanfodol bwysig. Rydym wedi gweld bod S4C wedi llwyddo i gael cynnwys ar gael y tu hwnt i Gymru. Rwy’n meddwl bod hynny’n bwysig dros ben.

 

Dr McElroy: If I may return to the question about the remit in the first place, and particularly thinking about that, and whether the service is for us in Wales or whether it goes beyond Wales, internationally. I think that’s crucially important. We have seen S4C succeed in having content that’s available beyond Wales. I think that’s extremely important.

 

[29]      Mae hynny’n beth gwahanol i’r pwynt arall rwy’n meddwl sy’n bwysig, sef ein bod ni’n ystyried sut mae S4C yn medru cyd-gynhyrchu a rhannu strategaeth a rhannu datblygiadau yn rhyngwladol hefyd. Felly, yn y lle cyntaf, o ran meddwl am sut y mae cynnwys ar gael i bobl y tu hwnt i Gymru, rydym ni’n gwybod bod cymaint o siaradwyr Cymraeg ddim yn byw yng Nghymru. Rydym hefyd wedi gweld, efo rhywbeth fel Y Gwyll/Hinterland, fod deunydd sydd wedi dod o Gymru yn gallu bod yn boblogaidd iawn y tu hwnt i Gymru. Ond, mae angen, i fynd yn ôl at y pwynt—sut mae pobl yn gwybod bod y cynnwys yna ar gael?

 

That is different to the other point I think is important, which is that we consider how S4C can co-produce and share strategy and share developments internationally as well. So, initially, in terms of thinking of how content is available for people beyond Wales, we know that there are so many Welsh speakers who don’t live in Wales. We’ve also seen, with something like Y Gwyll/Hinterland, that content that has come from Wales is able to be extremely popular beyond Wales. But, there is a need, and this is a point that has already been raised, to make sure that people know that content is available.

[30]      Un peth rwy’n meddwl y dylem ni ei drafod—o feddwl am beth ddywedodd BBC Cymru ryw wythnos yn ôl—yw y bydd datblygiad sianel ar-lein ar yr iPlayer. Sut mae hynny, fel ffenestr newydd, yn mynd i weithio? Sut mae hynny’n mynd i wneud yn siŵr bod cynnwys cyfrwng Cymraeg ar gael hefyd? Mae hynny, i fi, yn codi cwestiwn ynghylch—nid wyf i’n siŵr iawn beth yw’r gair Cymraeg am hyn—personalisation. Mae gyda fi erthygl o’m blaen i, er enghraifft:

 

One thing that I think we should be discussing is—considering what BBC Wales said about a week ago—there is going to be development of an on-line channel on the iPlayer. How is that, as a new window, going to work? How is that going to ensure that Welsh-medium content is available as well? For me, that raises the question of personalisation. I’ve got an article before me, for example:

[31]      ‘Public Service Broadcasting and Data-Driven Personalization—A View from Sweden.’

 

[32]      Mae tystiolaeth ar gael yn fanna ar ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus mewn gwledydd fel Sweden a Denmarc. Maen nhw’n gorfod ymdrin ag union yr un problemau sydd gyda ni. Nid ydym ar ein pennau ein hunain yn hyn. Mae yna rôl hynod o bwysig i ddarlledwyr cyhoeddus i feddwl mewn ffordd aeddfed o ran gwasanaeth cyhoeddus; nid jest i drio bod yn farchnad wahanol neu i gystadlu y tu fewn i’r farchnad, ond i gyflawni rhywbeth gwahanol a gwasanaethu’r cyhoedd.

 

There’s evidence available there on public broadcasters in countries such as Sweden and Denmark. They have to deal with precisely the same problems as we have. We’re not alone in this regard. There is an extremely important role for public broadcasters to think in a mature way in terms of public service, not just to try and be a different market or to try to compete within the market, but rather to provide a different service for the public.

[33]      Hynny yw, mae modd, pe bai’r BBC yn datblygu—ac rwy’n siŵr eu bod nhw am wneud hyn efo myBBC, lle mae rhywun yn gorfod llofnodi i mewn i wneud yn siŵr bod mwy o’r analytics ar gael—pwy sy’n defnyddio pa ddeunydd, pwy sy’n edrych ar newyddion trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, ac felly pa raglenni maen nhw’n medru gwthio wedyn atoch chi fel eich bod chi’n cael gwybod bod y rhaglenni yma ar gael.

 

That is, there is a way, if the BBC were to develop—and I'm sure that they are doing this with myBBC, where someone has to log in to ensure that there are more analytics available—so that they know who is using what, who is watching news through the medium of Welsh, and so what programmes can they then push to you so that you can know that those programmes are available.

[34]      Mr Marshall: Ac mae S4C yn gwneud hynny ar hyn o bryd. Maen nhw’n datblygu system log-in. Ond, y broblem eto ydy maint S4C a’r adnoddau dynol sydd gyda nhw’n fewnol i fedru gwneud hynny. Achos, os oes gyda chi gyllideb o £10,000 neu £10 miliwn, mae’r gwahaniaeth o ran beth rydych yn medru gwneud yn gwbl wahanol.

 

Mr Marshall: And S4C is currently doing that. They are developing a log-in system. But again, the problem is the size of S4C and the human resources available to them in-house to allow them to do that. Because, if you’ve got a budget of £10,000 or £10 million, the differences in what you can do are huge.

 

[35]      Dr McElroy: Dyna lle mae cydweithredu rhwng S4C a’r BBC yn hanfodol bwysig. Hefyd, sut mae pobl y tu hwnt i’r Deyrnas Unedig yn medru cael gafael ar ddeunydd ar yr iPlayer? Mae hwnnw yn gwestiwn lot ehangach, rwy’n  gwybod hynny. Ond, i fi, mae’n hanfodol bwysig ein bod ni’n edrych ar hynny. O ran y deunydd rhyngwladol, i fi, rydym wedi gweld, yn y tirlun, yn arbennig hwyrach efo rhaglenni plant a dramâu, mai cyd-gynhyrchu yw’r unig ffordd y mae deunydd o ansawdd, yn arbennig o ran dramâu, yn cael ei gynhyrchu bellach. Mae’r math o beth sydd ar Netflix ac Amazon—mae’r math o gyllid sydd gyda nhw yn enfawr. Nid yw S4C yn mynd i allu wneud unrhyw beth yn debyg i The Crown neu House of Cards, yn amlwg.

 

Dr McElroy: That’s where collaboration between S4C and the BBC is essential. Also, how do people beyond the UK have access to material on the iPlayer? I know that’s a much broader question. But, for me, it’s essential that we look at that. In terms of international content, for me, we’ve seen, in this landscape, particularly with children’s programmes and dramas, that co-production is the only way that high-quality content, particularly in terms of drama, is now being produced. The type of thing that’s on Netflix and Amazon—the type of budget that they have is huge. S4C is not going to be able to do anything along the lines of The Crown or House of Cards, obviously.

[36]      Mr Marshall: Ar y pwynt hwnnw, mae dwy gyfres o House of Cards yn cyfateb i gyllideb gyfan S4C am flwyddyn.

 

Mr Marshall: On that point, two series of House of Cards correspond to the entire annual budget of S4C.

 

[37]      Dr McElroy: Ond, wedi dweud hynny, mae modd gwneud mwy o ran cyd-gynhyrchu, rwy’n meddwl. Mae S4C mewn sefyllfa lle mae gyda ni’r iaith Saesneg a’r iaith Gymraeg. Mae modd gwneud mwy o ran cydweithredu a chyd-gynhyrchu efo gwledydd eraill, achos nid yw’r BBC hyd yn oed yn cynhyrchu ar eu pennau eu hunain bellach. Mae pethau wedi symud yn eu blaenau felly. ran rhywbeth fel drama, mae ansawdd yn hanfodol bwysig, rwy’n meddwl. Mae lle i gael y math o gynnwys sydd ar YouTube, sydd yn denu pobl ifanc. Ond, nid yw’r ansawdd yn ei hun—. Hynny yw, pan rydym yn sôn am ansawdd, rydym yn dueddol o feddwl am safonau proffesiynol. Nid dyna beth sy’n denu pobl ifanc i edrych ar raglenni ar YouTube. Mae’n fwy, i fi—. Beth yw’r ansawdd ydy bod llais pobl ifanc eraill yn swnio’n authentic—hynny yw, iddyn nhw. Nid ansawdd o ran deunydd proffesiynol y maen nhw’n chwilio amdano.

 

Dr McElroy: But, having said that, it is possible to do more in terms of co-production, I believe. S4C is in a position where we have the English language and the Welsh language. There’s a way to do more in terms of collaborating and co-producing with other countries, because even the BBC doesn’t just produce on its own anymore. Things have moved forward and developed. In terms of something like drama, quality is crucial, I believe. There is a place for us to get the kind of content on YouTube that attracts young people. Quality, in and of itself—. Because, when we talk about quality, we tend to think about professional standards. But that’s not what attracts young people to watch programmes on YouTube. As far as I can tell, the question of quality is about the voice of other young people, which sounds authentic—that is, to them. So, quality in terms of it being of a professional standard is not what they’re looking for.

 

[38]      Mr Marshall: Ond y gwahaniaeth mawr ydy bod yr ansawdd y mae pobl yn ei greu rŵan, oherwydd y dechnoleg sydd ganddyn nhw yn eu pocedi nhw, o ran ffôn, yn medru rhoi ansawdd anhygoel o uchel. Dyna ydy’r peth arall: mae technoleg yn mynd i symud yn ei flaen lot, ac mae hynny’n cael effaith.

 

Mr Marshall: But the difference is that the quality that people create now, because of the technology that they have in their pockets, from the point of view of a phone, can give you an incredibly high quality. That’s the other point: that technology has moved on apace.

 

[39]      Suzy Davies: Can I just bring this back to the—[Inaudible.] That’s what’s going to need to be changed, and what should be included in it. Should it include things like who should be responsible for intellectual property, because, of course, that’s been a limit on what S4C can do with some of these fabulous productions?

 

[40]      Bethan Jenkins: Suzy, os wyt ti’n symud ymlaen, a ydy hi’n iawn i Lee jyst ofyn cwestiwn clou ar y pwynt yma? Galli di ddod yn ôl wedyn, ar ôl hynny.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Suzy, if you’re moving on, would it be okay for Lee to just ask a quick question on this point? You can then come back on that.

 

[41]      Suzy Davies: Iawn, dim problem.

 

Suzy Davies: Yes, no problem.

 

[42]      Lee Waters: I just think this is a fascinating point to hit upon you, which is: what is the nature of public service broadcasting in this digital age? I think Huw Marshall, in both his testimonies, hit on a very interesting point. There was this angst 10 years ago about the production values of curated content, if you like, and the people in the industry thought that the audiences would never put up with the lower production values, whereas, in fact, as you’ve mentioned, on YouTube, the production values are meaningless because people will watch paint drying. But just because that’s where the audiences are, is that where S4C, as a public service broadcaster, should also be? So, what is the job? Should we have these Reithian values in what S4C should do, and should the statutory remit reflect that? Or should we simply say, ‘The delivery mechanism is irrelevant. If you want Welsh-language content’—because, as Ruth McElroy said, this is about propagating the language at the end of it—‘should we go where the people are at, and give them the content that they want, regardless of how you deliver it, or should we still try and preserve some kind of old-fashioned concept of a public service broadcaster delivering in multiple genres to a high production value?’

 

[43]      Dr McElroy: I think it’s not an either/or—I think that’s why public service broadcasters across Europe are struggling and why this is a big challenge. I think the values of public service broadcasting are still incredibly important, and we need to hold on to those. And I think, in an era of fake news, what better testimony for the need for being able to do that? But those values have got to live in a digital age, I think, and have also got to realise that digital doesn’t have to mean a market-driven competitive environment alone. We could be thinking much more ambitiously, I think, about how digital can be a shift, if you like, into genuine co-production, about how we could be working with a range of different aspects of civil society—the arts and culture in Wales—and actually thinking of ourselves as co-producers of content in that way.

 

[44]      It’s not, in other words, simply about delivering more Zoella vlogs; it’s actually much more ambitious than that—it’s about thinking about how we can give people the skills to give a voice to themselves, to be able to develop their own kinds of editorial skills as well, and how they can then monetise that. Because I think this is one of the things when we talk about digital: we don’t think about that as being something that can only be sustainable if there are some kinds of business skills behind it. I don’t think that digital has to always equate to the market. There’s a much more ambitious role that I think public service broadcasters could really grapple with and, in a sense, really develop and be at the forefront, I think, of understanding how citizens—and I do mean citizens rather than consumers—can actually be co-producers of content and actually have a voice in society, because, to me, that’s really key to what PSB values are.

 

[45]      Mr Marshall: Going back, I think the key thing is there is a role of creating content. That content in Welsh language, unless somebody funds it, is not going to be creative because the size of the market doesn’t allow, commercially, for that. So, there’s a role there, but I think the role is to create content. How that is distributed then, and on whatever platforms—to answer your point, I think it should be everywhere. The two things that do need protecting are those for news and children because you have to have those elements.

 

[46]      We’re talking about working in partnership with education. If we’re creating content, we’re going into the classroom now with the DCF, the digital competency framework, coming into play from 2018 onwards. Video content in the classroom is going to be a huge part of how we educate our children. That’s how they are learning things. So, as a public service broadcaster, is there a remit there to make sure that, when content is created for whatever purpose, there’s an educational slant to that, or that that content can be repurposed? Because the other thing that we’re not doing enough of at the moment is ailbwrpasu—recycling or upcycling content. We’ve made something. It goes out for 35 days and it ends up on a shelf. Why can’t we take that content out and put it into the classroom?

 

[47]      Lee Waters: We asked Ian Jones precisely that last week: how the rights issues are dealt with. The answer, essentially, was, ‘Well, we’d love to do it; we just don’t have the money.’ So, you make the point in your evidence that we’re spending £10 million on drama in Welsh, which will have very few viewers. Is it where you’re arguing that we should be putting less of an emphasis on these higher production value, slick productions, and more on the rights, so that content can be reused?

 

[48]      Mr Marshall: I think it’s both—

 

[49]      Lee Waters: But the money isn’t there for both.

 

[50]      Mr Marshall: Well, it depends how you spend the money, though, doesn’t it? Because that’s what I say, if you break down where the money goes, the contentious point is something like sport. People were talking about cricket on the radio yesterday. Cricket isn’t available via public service broadcasting; it’s only available as pay-per-view now, it’s not available anywhere. But that’s the situation the world exists in. Is sport through the medium of the Welsh language—is it important to have sport with Welsh-language commentary on? The majority of people who view sport on S4C, I would imagine, are doing it through the red button as well. So, there is that challenge, and you have to make difficult decisions. But if you change the model—you know, how much money is spent on getting that content out under the current broadcaster model?

 

[51]      Dr McElroy: I think the issue of rights is an important one, and I think the reality of Brexit is surely going to impact on that, because the whole logic of how rights and how an independent production ecology have grown in the UK are premised on the capacity to export. If you look at the data that come from PACT, digital rights are one of the key areas of growth. So, this is a much more—it’s not just S4C that’s having to deal with this. This is a major moment, I think, at which we need to be really thinking about what the tax system is and what the future, in many ways, of digital rights—. The challenge of windowing content is something that is cutting across all of the production companies and broadcasters in the UK.

 

[52]      Mr Marshall: Unfortunately, it’s the age that we live in. A lot of the contracts that exist currently with the trade bodies and the unions have been written prior to when YouTube existed. I know these are being updated, but as soon as they’re updated, something else is coming into place, and the audience now expect something to be there for far longer than they actually currently are. You go into Netflix—okay, you’re paying for that—you know that content is going to be there. You don’t have to worry about, ‘Oh, I’ve got to watch this within a certain window.’ That is what limits people accessing that content. So, there is a cost involved in it, but it’s something that can be negotiated, and moving forward, we need to look at what those contracts look at, so saying, ‘Right, we’re going to make this, but it has to be available for this amount of time’, and people sign that agreement and agree to that content.

 

[53]      Bethan Jenkins: Mae gan Jeremy gwestiwn clou.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy has a quick question.

[54]      Jeremy Miles: A ydych chi’n credu bod achos i drin y farchnad Gymraeg yn wahanol i’r farchnad Saesneg? Hynny yw, os ydych chi’n edrych ar y tirlun o ran hawliau yn y farchnad Saesneg ar draws Prydain—a’r rheswm mae e wedi datblygu fel mae e yw achos deddfu a bod cystadleuaeth i brynu’r hawliau, basically, a bod gwerth yn cael ei greu trwy’r broses yna o gystadlu a gwerthu’n rhyngwladol. Nid yw hynny actually yn wir yn yr un ffordd o fewn y tirlun Cymraeg. A ydych chi’n credu bod rheswm felly dros gael platfform gwahanol o hawliau ar gyfer darlledu Cymraeg yn benodol—yn hytrach na jest cyfnodau, strwythur gwahanol?

 

Jeremy Miles: Do you believe that there’s a case for the Welsh-language market to be treated differently to the English-language market? That is, if you look at the rights landscape in the English-language market over Britain—and the reason it’s developed the way it has is because of legislation and because there’s been competition to buy those rights, basically, and so value has been created through that process of selling internationally. That’s not actually quite true of the Welsh-language landscape. Do you therefore believe that there’s a reason or justification for a different platform of rights for broadcasting in the Welsh language—rather than just periods, different structure?

 

[55]      Mr Marshall: Mae hynny’n hanfodol achos rydw i’n meddwl beth sydd yn atal cael y sgyrsiau hynny ar hyn o bryd am gynnwys yn y Gymraeg—achos beth rydym ni isio dweud ydy, ‘Rydym ni isio i’r cynnwys yma fod ar gael’, ond mae yna gost yn ymwneud â hynny, ac mae’r gost yn ormodol achos mae o’n based ar yr un hawliau â phetaech chi’n gwneud hynny efo rhaglen yn Lloegr yn Saesneg. Rydw i wedi gweld, o ran safbwynt y bobl sydd yn gwneud y cytundebau yna o ran yr undebau, nad ydyn nhw isio dweud—petasem ni’n gwneud hyn yng Nghymru fel special case, maen nhw’n mynd i ddweud, ‘Wel, rydym ni isio gwneud hyn rhywle arall.’ Rydw i’n meddwl mai dyna ydy’r issue. Yn bendant mae isio’i wneud o, a’i fod o’n rhywbeth sy’n cael ei ddeall: yn achos y Gymraeg, mae o yn wahanol, achos nid ydy’r farchnad ar gael er mwyn medru gwerthu’r cynnwys yna ymlaen i ddarlledwyr eraill fel sy’n medru cael ei wneud yn Saesneg.

 

Mr Marshall: That is vital, really, because what stops us having that conversation about content in Welsh—what we are trying to say is that we want that content to be available, but there is a cost associated with that, and it’s excessive, prohibitive, because it’s based on the same rights as if you were making that programme in England in English. So, I have seen, from the point of view of the unions, that they don’t want to say—if we do this in Wales as a special case, they’re going to say, ‘Well, we want to do it elsewhere.’ I think that that’s the issue. It definitely needs to be done, and that it’s something that’s understood: in the case of the Welsh language, it is different, because the market isn’t available to be able to sell that content on to other broadcasters as you’re able to do in English.

[56]      Jeremy Miles: Diolch.

 

Jeremy Miles: Thank you.

[57]      Bethan Jenkins: Sori, Suzy—rydym ni’n dod nôl atat ti nawr. Diolch.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, Suzy, we’ll return to you now. Thank you.

[58]      Suzy Davies: Just one very quick one: bearing in mind everything you’ve said, do you think that any remit change to S4C is still going to be limited unless we change, by law, the definition of public service broadcasting?

 

[59]      Mr Marshall: That’s a big one. You go. [Laughter.] [Inaudible.]—academic friend. [Laughter.]

 

[60]      Suzy Davies: It would need legislation, so there’s a timing issue here.

 

[61]      Dr McElroy: It would require legislation, and I think it would, perhaps more importantly, require a much greater, I think, consensus on what the way forward would be amongst the different public service broadcasters. What I would say is: the person or the organisation that I think you should have before you with evidence on that is the European Broadcasting Unions, because the kind of research that they have been doing—2017 they have particularly designated as a digital year, in which they are trying to support public service broadcasters as they become public service media organisations and what that actually means across the different remits for them. And legally, of course, for many of them, that also pertains to the EU.

 

[62]      Mr Marshall: I think there has been a frustration for S4C that they are still working within a narrow framework, and, thankfully, they are doing things outside of that, because it has to be done, and sometimes you just have to carry on and do things. The fact that they changed Channel 4’s remit and didn’t change S4C’s at the same time is confusing and odd, because there was an opportunity lost there, because Channel 4 has got a wider remit.

10:00

 

[63]      Going back to the point about the international one—for Wales, within Wales—if you look at something like the Royal Welsh, which is streamed internationally, there’s a huge audience for that in Benelux countries, in Ireland, Australia and all over the world, so there are audiences for content made by S4C or by Welsh producers for the international market.

 

[64]      Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you very much.

 

[65]      Bethan Jenkins: News to me.

 

[66]      Dai Lloyd: Well, Lee is an avid watcher of the Royal Welsh Show, obviously—live, every day on S4C in July. [Laughter.]

 

[67]      Bethan Jenkins: Anyway, let’s not go there. [Laughter.] Going back to Lee Waters on resources and finance.

 

[68]      Lee Waters: Let’s return some sobriety to the proceedings, I think. I just want to talk about the funding and the financial situation. Huw Marshall has alluded, several times, to the commercial market simply not being there. We had some angst last week from ITV Wales that if the commercial basis of the relationship between S4C, BBC and others was to change, the whole ecosystem implications of that should be required. Ian Jones has told us that he doesn’t see much scope for increasing the amount of money S4C raises commercially from 2 per cent as much scope to grow. So, I just wanted your reflections on whether there’s space there for S4C to do some things that are more commercial and if there was, what would be the implications, the pros and cons of that?

 

[69]      Mr Marshall: I think there is. It’s being ambitious. I can see the point that it’s a challenge to increase that, but I think, as an industry, as a nation, we have to have this attitude that, if we are—going back to the Royal Welsh—streaming content to international markets, how are we then ensuring that we’re placing ads from Dutch horse supply companies around that content? There is a way, now, that we can commercialise content within an international context. How do we make sure that content that is made in Wales, in Welsh, can get out internationally, but can be monetised within those spaces? Technically, it is possible to do that now, and we have to be more bullish, we have to be more aggressive, we have to think about what’s in the archive, how can we repurpose that archive and get out there? How can we repurpose what’s there for educational markets—not just in Wales and not in the UK, but internationally? Content has a value, but you need a strategy to commercialise that content. But, again, in order to commercialise that, you need to invest in people, because currently, I would say that S4C hasn’t got physically enough people to commercialise their activities. In order to do that, you need to invest in people in order to sell their content on and sell their services and platforms.

 

[70]      Dr McElroy: I think that’s part of the wider requirement of the skill set within what we’re talking about when we talk about independent production companies, actually, because it’s a huge ask for what are, very often, very, very small companies to be able to take that step on in thinking strategically about what those different content windows would be and how to monetise each of those, because even some of the larger organisations are genuinely struggling with that. One thing I would add to this is, in terms of that ambition, it does occasionally strike me that S4C is still plagued by a very unnecessary defensiveness. When I show colleagues work that S4C does internationally, it’s never judgment that comes out—it’s always a positive response, and at times I think S4C should be more confident, actually, and more ambitious on the basis of what it has already accomplished.

[71]      If you look at the way in which something like Nordic Noir—and I know that that is very high-end premium content—but if you look at the way, strategically, those public service broadcasters managed to break into what was always assumed would be an absolutely impenetrable English-language market—. It was a truth universally acknowledged that you couldn’t get the people of Britain to watch subtitled television—change happens, but you have to have a strategy to give people time to develop that. That was really a 10-year strategy that DR led, and that sense that there will be some failures en route—it won’t develop quickly, and particularly with drama, you’re not going to turn that around quickly. So, I think there has to be a commitment there, but I think, in turn, you, as politicians, also have to be supportive of S4C in recognising that if everything keeps coming back to a narrow understanding of viewing figures, they will respond to that, of course.

[72]      Mr Marshall: And I think—remember, S4C, one of the big successes it was built on was things like animation, you know, SuperTed going out to the world. The success was built on internationalising their content. The loss of S4C International, I think, was sad, because there was a body within S4C that could actually go out and do that. It’s hard, as Ruth said, for the production companies to do that. Having a body that can actually help them get that content and sell it is—

 

[73]      Dr McElroy: And I think that’s the much bigger question for us. And, as I say, I think, at this moment, as we’re in the run-up to Brexit, this is really, really key. We have—. We’re really fortunate, we still have, with something like Cloth Cat Animation, for example, companies that are doing amazing work, both through the medium of Welsh, and also co-productions in China, for example, and exploiting those markets. Now, I think, at the moment, the reality of what the currency exchange is is facilitating export, but the really big question at the end is going to be, ‘What are the trade agreements that are going to allow this export?’, because that’s the main area that we’re talking about. But many companies are in a complete unknown at the moment in terms of—

 

[74]      Mr Marshall: And the other thing is exporting digitally, because I think the digital market isn’t as concerned about Brexit. We all use platforms that are based in other countries, you know, someone like Netflix, and you are using software that’s based in other countries. That market is an international market anyway. The fact that you can access content from other countries via a platform is common practice now. But what we need to ensure is how do you actually potentially monetise that content if it is being put out in other countries.

 

[75]      Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, Lee, just quickly, Jeremy wants to come in specifically on this point, if that’s okay, and then we can come back to you.

 

[76]      Jeremy Miles: Jest ar y cwestiwn yma, mae’r ddau ohonoch chi wedi sôn am gynhyrchwyr annibynnol, a’r pwysau sydd arnyn nhw, a’r diffyg adnoddau a’r gallu i werthu hawliau a’u dosbarthu nhw yn rhyngwladol ac ati. Onid y ffafr fwyaf y gallem ni ei wneud i S4C yw newid y cylch gwaith i gynnwys bod yn gynhyrchydd hefyd? A ydy’r model sydd gyda ni yng Nghymru, bod gyda chi farchnad gydag un cwsmer ar gyfer eich cynnwys chi, yn synhwyrol?

 

Jeremy Miles: Just on this question, both of you have mentioned independent producers, and the pressures that they’re under, the lack of resources, and the ability to sell rights, and distribute internationally and so on. Would not the greatest favour that we could do for S4C be to change the remit to include being a producer as well? Is the model that we have in Wales, where you’ve got a market with just one customer for your product, sensible?

 

[77]      Dr McElroy: Wel, na, nid ydw i’n meddwl. Yn y lle cyntaf, rydw i’n meddwl, yn rhannol, beth rydym ni’n dweud ydy’r her ydy i feddwl bod yna gwsmeriaid eraill tu hwnt i Gymru, felly nid yw hynny ynddo’i hun—. Rydw i’n meddwl bod hynny’n rhy gyfyng. Rydw i’n deall beth yr ydych chi’n ei ddweud o ran pe buasai S4C yn cynhyrchu, ond un o lwyddiannau mwyaf S4C, yn economaidd, a hefyd yn ddiwylliannol ac yn ieithyddol, yw bod yna ddatblygiad o gwmnïau annibynnol. Felly, ni fuasem ni’n eisiau newid hynny. Buasai hynny yn golled, rwy’n credu, ac yn golled o ran sut mae’r gwaith yma’n cael ei gyflawni ar draws y wlad. Ond mae angen, rydw i’n meddwl, strategaeth fwy eang—a posib iawn bod hyn yn y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg tu fewn i Gymru—ar sut i ddatblygu’r sgiliau yma i allforio, ond hefyd i feddwl yn fwy eang ar sut i ddatblygu yr holl ffenestri yma.

 

Dr McElroy: Well, no, I don’t think so. In the first place, I think that, partially, what we are saying is the challenge is to think that there are other customers beyond Wales, so, that isn’t in itself—. I think that that’s too limiting and restrictive. I understand what you’re saying about if S4C were to become a producer, but one of the greatest successes of S4C, economically, and culturally and linguistically, is that there has been a development of independent companies. We wouldn’t want to change that. That would be a loss, I believe, and that would be loss from the point of view of how the work is undertaken throughout the country. But I do think we need a broader strategy—and very possibly in Welsh and English within Wales—on how to develop these skills to export, but also to think more broadly about how you develop these windows.

 

[78]      Mr Marshall: Rydw i’n cytuno. Mae’r model o publisher-broadcaster yn gwneud synnwyr, iddyn nhw fod yn cynhyrchu, achos, yn y bôn, beth rwyt ti’n sôn amdano ydy tynnu mewn cwmnïau sydd yn bodoli’n barod er mwyn gweithredu hynny. Ond rydw i’n meddwl bod yna le i edrych ar fodelau, fel rydw i wedi sôn amdano o ran EITB a Gwlad y Basg, lle mae nhw’n medru perchen ar adnoddau, sydd yn golygu wedyn bod yna fodd i ddefnyddio’r adnoddau.

 

Mr Marshall: I agree. That model of being a publisher-broadcaster makes sense, for them to be producing, because, what you’re talking about is bringing in companies that already exist in order to implement that. But I think that there’s a place to look at other models, as I’ve mentioned with EITB in the Basque Country, where they do own the resources, which means that there is a way to use those resources.

[79]      Jeremy Miles: Mae wedi gweithio i ITV, mae wedi gweithio i’r BBC, pam na allai fe weithio i S4C?

 

Jeremy Miles: It’s worked for ITV, it’s worked for the BBC, why can’t it work for S4C?

[80]      Mr Marshall: Ond, cofia, mae’r BBC yn darparu ar gyfer S4C.

 

Mr Marshall: But, remember, the BBC is providing for S4C.

[81]      Jeremy Miles: Ydy, rydw i’n gwybod, ond mae hynny’n rhan fach o’r ddarpariaeth. Mae BBC a ITV yn gynhyrchwyr cynnwys ar raddfa eang, ac mae’r ddau yn llwyddo. Pam na ddylai hynny fod yn wir i S4C?

 

Jeremy Miles: Yes, but that’s a small part of the provision. The BBC and ITV are content producers on a grand scale, and both succeed. Why can’t that be true of S4C?

[82]      Mr Marshall: Wel, y scale. Maen nhw’n anferthol o’i gymharu. Nid yw’n rhywbeth—wel, mi wyt ti’n methu â gwneud. Mae’r gymhariaeth yna, i mi, yn annheg.

 

Mr Marshall: Well, it’s a question of scale. They’re huge in comparison. It’s not something—well, you can’t really make that comparison. To me, is unfair.

 

[83]      Jeremy Miles: Wel, nid wyf cweit yn cytuno â hynny, ond mi wnaf adael e fanna am nawr.

 

Jeremy Miles: Well, I don’t quite agree, but I’ll leave it at that for now.

[84]      Bethan Jenkins: Grêt. Diolch. Lee Waters, a wyt ti eisiau parhau?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Great. Thank you. Lee Waters, do you wish to continue?

[85]      Lee Waters: It’s tempting to pursue that line of argument, but I’ll just move us on a little in terms of the funding that’s necessary to build the type of S4C we think is fit for the modern age. There’s the question of sufficiency, set out in law, of what S4C’s funding should be. Do you have any sense—Huw Marshall has mentioned several times the restrictions on capacity—of what sort of funding would be sufficient for S4C in order to fulfil its modern purpose?

 

[86]      Mr Marshall: I think, again, it’s difficult. Unless we know what that model is, moving forward, I think we’re just going round and round in circles. Under the model now, where they’re broadcasting so many hours a week, then, obviously, you have to fill those hours with content. I refer in my testimony—. You go back to 1982, when S4C launched—BBC and ITV, the two main competitors, were the same model. You had children’s television; there were repeats within that schedule. Now, the BBC have got—I don’t know how many—nine channels, ITV have got numerous channels. S4C is still that same piece of work, and having to fill—. I think the biggest problem at the moment is that schedule, because, if you’ve got less money and you’re still having to fill those hours, how do you justify filling those hours? Because you’ve either got to spend less across the board or you cut back on the hours and spend more. I think, if you look across Europe, that is the model that is developing. You just need to spend more on maybe less content, but it’s actually content of a higher standard that people actually do want to watch and react to. But also the flip side is the other content—the Facebook, YouTube content, that, of its nature, costs less. But it’s finding that balance. Until we know what the actual remit is—. That’s why I think, moving forward, we need to consider, in five or 10 years’ time, what the state of broadcasting actually will be.

 

[87]      Lee Waters: So, the current level of funding could be sufficient if the model was changed—if you shrunk the television output and made it better quality and diverted into creating greater digital content.

 

[88]      Mr Marshall: Yes, if you actually broadcast fewer hours, but, currently, they’re having to fill daily schedules from the crack of dawn to midnight.

 

[89]      Lee Waters: So, you think that should stop.

 

[90]      Mr Marshall: Well, I think, moving forward, we should consider actually—

 

[91]      Lee Waters: Well, now is the time to consider it, so what do you think?

 

[92]      Mr Marshall: I think we should be making less and making it better. So, rather than having lots of content that maybe gets lost in a sea of content, we actually have landmark content. But it is striking that balance. That’s why, going back to EITB, they do have lots of studio-based discussion shows which, of their nature, are low cost per hour, which then means you can actually spend more on the peak hours to make sure that you’ve got content there that people want to watch. The problem we have as well is that, at 9 o’clock on a Monday night, what was on? Everybody was watching Broadchurch. The figures are showing, from a live, linear point of view, the majority are watching something like that. So, having schedules now, S4C is one of many channels, like UKTV Gold or whatever. Their unique selling point is that they are a Welsh-language channel, and that content is ‘yn y Gymraeg’. But how do you ensure that people actually get to that content? Because, you know, from a priority, people have got less time on their hands. People have less time to watch content. That’s why they’re bingeing, they’re asking people, ‘What series are you watching?’ So, moving forward, I think we should consider lessening the hours that we broadcast at the moment, but, obviously, keep the money and actually spend more per hour in-peak.

 

[93]      Lee Waters: On the Basque parallel of the lower production value of discussion programmes, we did specifically ask S4C last week about their tariffs and could they produce cheaper programmes. Ian Jones was firmly of the view that they have cut to the bone and they couldn’t get it any lower.

 

[94]      Mr Marshall: Well, it depends on the type of content. When I was making cookery shows for UKTV Food, I would make 26 half-hour programmes for £4,000 per half hour. I’m going back 10 years, and that’s probably the cost it is now. It depends on what your content is. If you’re still trying to make content that is aping or mimicking BBC, ITV, Channel 4, then it is going to be a challenge because people are thinking—you know, the audience at home isn’t thinking, ‘This is in Welsh; this is an English’. They’re just watching content. So, there is a challenge there.

 

[95]      Lee Waters: In your evidence, you’ve suggested the creation of a Welsh publishing body and a new model of public service distributor. Would that be instead of the current S4C model or alongside?

 

[96]      Mr Marshall: Well, I think it should be part of a mix, because we’re looking at things like—. You’ve touched on this, Ruth. Having things like the books council, the arts council: all these bodies are creating content. How can we actually have an overseeing look on that? Because, if you were starting today and thinking, ‘We’re going to create content for Welsh-language audiences’, a television channel isn’t what you would be setting up today. You would be trying to set up some sort of Welsh-language Netflix, where that content is all available, you can go in there and choose that. That’s the way that the times are going.

 

[97]      Lee Waters: But what about your mother in Wrexham?

 

[98]      Mr Marshall: Yes, there is going to be a transitional period, where you’re getting that. You still need things like news, for example. That still needs to sit within that linear framework. It is difficult, because you’re going to—you know, looking at audiences—. But, if you’re looking at how many Welsh-speakers there are over 65—I put the percentage down; it is, unfortunately, a small percentage. If we’re moving forward, do we think, ‘Right, our priority is the millennials—the 55 per cent of Welsh-speakers. How do we keep them engaged in the language and using it?’, so, in 2050, we have got 1 million or 1.5 million Welsh speakers?

 

10:15

 

[99]      Lee Waters: Okay. Diolch.

 

[100]   Bethan Jenkins: Can I just—?

 

[101]   A allaf i jest fynd yn ôl i rywbeth yr oeddech chi wedi’i ddweud wrth Lee Waters ynglŷn â chynnwys? Roeddech chi’n dweud bod angen i ni—neu i S4C—wario mwy ar greu llai o gynnwys. Onid yw hynny’n gwrthddweud eich dadl chi ynglŷn â—? Y ddadl am YouTube yw nad yw’n costio unrhyw beth, ac wedyn—

 

May I just return to something that you said in answer to Lee Waters about content? You said that S4C needed to spend more on less content. Doesn’t that contradict your argument about—? The argument around YouTube is that it doesn’t cost anything, and then—

[102]   Mr Marshall: Na, mae eisiau cael y cydbwysedd yna, rydw i’n meddwl. Os wyt ti’n sôn am lai o oriau yn cael eu darlledu, mae’n golygu wedyn nad yw’r arian yn gorfod cael ei wasgaru mor bell. Rydw i’n meddwl mai dyna ydy’r her. Nid ydw i’n gwybod beth yw’r fathemateg o ran 16, 17 awr y dydd x365—dyna pam mae yna gymaint o ailddarllediadau, achos mae o’n ffordd o lenwi’r amserlen ac mae S4C yn cael ei beirniadu’n annheg am hynny. Achos mae ITV—ITV2, nid oes yna neb yn dweud, ‘O ITV2, mae’n llawn o repeats’—mae ganddyn nhw ofod ar gyfer ailddarlledu cynnwys ac mae pobl eisiau gweld y cynnwys yna. Ond mae S4C yn cael eu bwrw drwy’r amser am eu bod nhw’n gwneud hynny oherwydd nad oes yna ddigon o arian er mwyn cynhyrchu pethau. Ond rydw i’n meddwl bod eisiau i ni edrych ar fodelau newydd. A ydym ni’n edrych ar bethau fel rhaglenni coginio strip neu quizzes strip? Dyna pam mae pethau fel Tipping Point a Pointless ar yr amserlen—nid ydy'r rheini’n rhaglenni drud i’w cynhyrchu, ond maen nhw’n creu cannoedd ohonyn nhw, ac mae’r gost ar y rheini lot, lot yn llai.

 

Mr Marshall: Well, I think we need to strike a balance. If you’re talking about fewer broadcasting hours, it would then mean that the money wouldn’t have to be spread so thinly. That is the challenge. I don’t know what the maths is as regards 16 or 17 hours per day x365—that’s why there are so many repeats because it’s a way of filling up the schedule and S4C is unfairly criticised because of that. Because ITV—they’ve got ITV2, nobody says, ‘Oh, it’s full of repeats’—they have that space in order to rebroadcast content and people want to see that content. But S4C is always criticised for doing that because they don’t have sufficient funding in order to produce new content. But I do think we need to look at new models. Are we looking at things such as cookery and quiz strip programming? That’s why Tipping Point and Pointless are on the schedule—they’re not very expensive to produce, but they create hundreds of them and the cost per hour of that is much, much lower.

 

[103]   Bethan Jenkins: Ocê. Diolch. Mae Dai Lloyd yn mynd i ofyn cwestiynau ynglŷn ag atebolrwydd nawr.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Dai Lloyd will ask questions now about accountability.

[104]   Dai Lloyd: Ie, diolch yn fawr. Jest i ategu, rwy’n credu bod yr ailddarllediadau yn hynod bwysig. I’r rhai ohonom ni sy’n methu’r darllediad cyntaf o ba bynnag raglen, mae’n handi cael ei weld e wedyn yn ystod y dydd wedyn ar ddydd Sadwrn neu ddydd Sul. So, mae’r busnes yma o repeats—nid yw e’n negyddol, mae’n rhaid i mi ddweud, ac rydw i’n credu ei fod o’n cyflawni swyddogaeth bwysig. A hefyd, a gaf i eich llongyfarch chi ar eich papur, gyda llaw, mae wedi bod yn ddadlennol iawn a hefyd, buaswn i’n dweud, yn ysbrydoledig, yn ogystal â’r dystiolaeth gerbron? Gan droi at fater ychydig bach yn fwy sych ond pwysig, yn ôl gofynion yr adolygiad yma, a dyna’r ffordd y mae S4C yn cael ei llywodraethu ar hyn o bryd a’r llinellau atebolrwydd. Felly, a allaf i ofyn i chi, yn y lle cyntaf, a oes gennych chi farn ynglŷn ag effeithiolrwydd trefniadau llywodraethu presennol S4C?

 

Dai Lloyd: Thank you very much. I just wanted to reiterate, because I do think that the repeats are extremely important. To those of us who miss the first time a programme is shown, it’s handy then to see it on a Saturday or a Sunday, for example. So, this issue of repeats is not necessarily negative, I have to say, and it does fulfil a very important role. May I also congratulate you on your paper, by the way, it’s been very revealing, and I would even say inspired, as well as the evidence that we’ve received before us? Now, to turn to something that is maybe a little drier, but important, in terms of the requirements of this review, and that’s about the accountability and the governance of S4C currently. May I first of all ask you if you’ve got a view about the efficacy of the current arrangements for governance in S4C? 

[105]   Dr McElroy: Rydw i’n cael gwneud y cwestiwn sych, ydw i? [Chwerthin.]

 

Dr McElroy: I get to answer the dry question, do I? [Laughter.]

[106]   Dai Lloyd: Sych ond pwysig.

 

Dai Lloyd: Dry but important.

[107]   Mr Marshall: Un pwynt sydd eisiau ei wneud, rydw i’n meddwl, o ran Awdurdod S4C—rydw i’n meddwl bod yna bryder bod maint yr awdurdod wedi ei leihau ac rydw i’n meddwl bod hynny yn fater. Nid yw’n deg ar aelodau’r awdurdod rŵan, achos mae eu workload nhw o ran awdurdodi wedi ei gynyddu—mae hynny’n rhywbeth sydd eisiau ymateb iddo fo. Mae angen i’r awdurdod fod yn gorff efo fwy o unigolion a hefyd efallai nad yw’r sgiliau, yn enwedig yn yr oes ddigidol, yna—nid fy mod i’n pitsio am job—ar gyfer y math yna o beth. Ond rydw i’n meddwl bod angen, yn yr oes sydd ohoni rŵan, ddealltwriaeth wahanol hefyd o ran y bobl i awdurdodi.

 

Mr Marshall: One thing that needs to be done, from the point of view of the S4C Authority—I think there is a concern that the size of the authority has contracted and I think that is an issue. It’s not fair on the authority members, because their workload in terms of the authority has increased. That’s something that requires a response. There is a need for the authority to be a body with more individuals and also possibly the skills, particularly in the digital age, aren’t there—not that I’m pitching for a job—for that kind of thing. But I think we need, in the current age, a different understanding in terms of the people on the authority.

 

[108]   Dr McElroy: Ie, yn sicr.

 

Dr Mc Elroy: Yes, certainly.

[109]   Dai Lloyd: A allwch chi symud ymlaen i adeiladu—yn y dyfodol, beth fuasech chi’n eu gweld fel y trefniadau llywodraethu delfrydol i S4C?

 

Dai Lloyd: And then moving on to building—for the future, what would you see as the ideal governance arrangements, then, for S4C?

[110]   Dr McElroy: Un o’r pethau sy’n fy nharo i, yn y lle cyntaf, ydy bydd S4C mewn sefyllfa lle mai dim ond nhw sydd ddim yn cael eu rheoleiddio gan Ofcom ac rydw i’n meddwl bod hynny yn mynd i fod yn fwy o broblem yn y dyfodol achos mae’n gymaint o wahaniaeth felly. Felly, rydw i’n meddwl bod angen i ni gael trafodaeth am beth y buasem ni’n ei golli petasai Ofcom yn cael y rôl yna. A fuasai Ofcom yn medru ymateb i’r fath her? A oes digon o ddealltwriaeth ganddyn nhw ar hyn o bryd i gyflawni’r rôl yna? Buaswn i’n dweud na. Ond a oes yna fodd iddyn nhw fedru gwneud yn y dyfodol? Hwyrach fod—mi fydd yn rhaid iddyn nhw symud ymlaen o ran eu rôl nhw efo’r BBC beth bynnag. Ond hefyd y cwestiwn fwy presennol, rydw i’n meddwl, ydy’r berthynas efo’r BBC, wrth gwrs. Yn arbennig, beth y buaswn i’n ei ddweud ydy, hyd y gwn i, rydym ni’n dal i aros i gael enw—nid ydw i’n gwybod beth ydy hyn yn Gymraeg—non-executive director ar y bwrdd. Rydw i’n meddwl bod yna rôl hynod o bwysig yn y person hwnnw a sut y mae’r rôl yna yn cael ei disgrifio, achos llais y gynulleidfa a llais y diwydiant yng Nghymru ddylai fod y rôl honno, ac rydw i’n meddwl bod yna rôl i ni drafod bod angen i’r person hwnnw fod yn medru cydweithio efo’r awdurdod yn S4C a bod yna le i bontio rywfaint. Achos mae’r cydweithredu rhwng BBC ac S4C wedi bod yn dda, rydw i’n credu, er gwaethaf yr holl bryderon oedd gan bobl ar y cychwyn—rydw i’n meddwl bod y cydweithrediad wedi bod yn un da, ond mae’r arwahanrwydd yn dal i fod yn bwysig iawn, rydw i’n meddwl. Felly, i fi, mae’r swydd honno, a’r person hwnnw, yn hynod o bwysig.

 

Dr Mc Elroy: Well, one of the things that strikes me in the first place is that S4C will be in a position where they will be the sole organisation not being regulated by Ofcom and I think that’s going to be a bigger problem in the future because it’s such a big difference. So, we need a discussion about what we would lose if Ofcom were to be given that role. Would Ofcom be able to respond to such a challenge? Do they have sufficient understanding at present to undertake that role? I would say that the answer is ‘no’. But is it a role that they might be able to undertake in the future? Possibly—they will have to move on from their role with the BBC anyway. But also the more present question, I think, is the relationship with the BBC, of course. Particularly, I would say that, as far as I know, we’re still waiting for a name for the—I don’t know what this is in Welsh—non-executive director on the BBC board. I think that there’s an exceptionally important role for that person and how that role is described, because the voice of the audience and the voice of the industry in Wales should be incorporated in that role, and I think that we need to discuss the fact that that person must be able to work with the S4C Authority and that there is scope for some bridging work. Because the collaboration between S4C and BBC has been good, I believe, despite all the concerns that people had at the very outset—I believe that the co-operation has been good, but the separateness is still very important, I think. So, to me, that post, and that person, is exceptionally important.

[111]   Bethan Jenkins: Mae Lee Waters eisiau dod mewn eto.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters wants to come in again.

[112]   Lee Waters: I just want to explore the concept of independence and what it means in this new digital era, because we’re getting hung up on the principle of it as an end in itself. Given the discussions we’ve had about the emphasis being on content, does it really matter where that content emerges from, so long as it does what we need it to do and reaches Welsh speakers wherever they are? So, I just want to explore the idea of going back to first principles. Huw Marshall said you wouldn’t create a television service now, but would you create a standalone Welsh public service broadcaster, or are there other models where we can achieve the objective we want, bearing in mind the cost of having a standalone broadcaster through governance, structures and all the rest of it, rather than money that could be invested in content? So, I just want to explore that question with you.

 

[113]   Mr Marshall: I agree. At the end of the day, I want to see as much quality Welsh language content out there as possible. Governance isn’t my area of expertise, but I agree that the word ‘independence’ is bandied around a lot. At the end of the day, as long as that content is available, what’s important is that whoever looks after that body has the independence to be able to decide ‘Yes, we want to have this service, we want to be able to have that’—that’s what is key. I think if you look at the relationship with the BBC, and what the BBC supply, if you look at Newyddion 9, Newyddion 9 is one of the best news programmes that the BBC in the UK produces. It has a different approach to news to what a national broadcaster does, so it does show that the BBC can be doing things in Wales that are completely different to how they operate in other places.

 

[114]   Bethan Jenkins: [Inaudible.]—Dai Lloyd.

 

[115]   Dai Lloyd: Roeddwn yn mynd ymlaen i hynny, ond yn nhermau ychydig bach llai sych nawr, yn nhermau lle dylai’r cyfrifoldeb dros S4C fod wrth symud ymlaen, eto, gyda’r busnes annibyniaeth—mae annibyniaeth S4C, sut bynnag bydd hi’n edrych yn y dyfodol, yn bwysig i rai ohonom ni er mwyn gallu gwarantu o leiaf gwasanaeth yn yr iaith Gymraeg, sydd ddim yn eilradd i unrhyw wasanaeth arall, fel oedd yn digwydd cyn 1982. Dyna pam mae pwysigrwydd annibyniaeth S4C yn hanfodol i rai ohonom. Ond, yn nhermau symud ymlaen, ble rydych chi’n meddwl—? Ac rwy’n deall yn eich papur eich bod chi’n credu y dylem ni fod yn ddigon aeddfed fel Cymry i allu fod yn rhedeg ein system gyfryngol ni ein hunain. Felly, a fyddech yn cytuno’n raddol y dylai materion dros lywodraethu S4C, a sut rydym ni’n rhedeg S4C, gael eu datganoli i’r lle hwn o Lundain, ac wedyn, wrth gwrs, yr arian yn dilyn? Nid wyf yn gwybod os ydych chi eisiau ymateb i hynny.

 

Dai Lloyd: Following on from that, but just in terms of perhaps slightly less dry issues now, I’m asking where the responsibility for S4C should lie, moving onwards, again, with this issue of independence. The independence of S4C, whatever it may look like in the future, is important for some of us in order to guarantee that there will be a Welsh language service that will not be sub-standard compared with other services, as was the position before 1982. So, that is why the independence of S4C is so crucial to many of us. But, in terms of moving forward, where do you think—? And I understand from your paper that you believe that we should be mature enough as a Welsh nation to be able to run our own media system. So, would you agree that the governance of S4C, and how we run S4C, should be devolved to this place, from London, with, of course, the funding following that? I don’t know whether you want to respond.

[116]   Mr Marshall: Rwy’n cytuno. Yn yr oes sydd ohoni—a dim jest o ran darlledu, mae eisiau hefyd o ran newyddion. Os ydym yn edrych ar gynnwys y cyfryngau, mae’n rhaid i ni edrych arno yn ehangach. Fel roeddem ni’n sôn o ran pethau fel Facebook, fake news a phethau fel yna, nid oes ffordd o ymyrryd yn hynny oherwydd nid yw’n rhywbeth sydd wedi cael ei ddatganoli. Ond, rwy’n meddwl bod hynny’n bwysig, achos dyna’r platfformau sy’n mynd i fod yn fwyaf dylanwadol o ran symud ymlaen. Felly, i fi, mae’n hanfodol bod hynny’n dod i’r fan yma, ac mae hwnna, rwy’n meddwl, yn mynd i sicrhau’r annibyniaeth, beth bynnag ydy’r annibyniaeth yn olygyddol, oherwydd mae’r fan yma yn mynd i fod yn edrych ar ei ôl o.

 

Mr Marshall: Well, I agree. In this day and age, and not just from the point of view of just broadcasting but news as well, we have to look at the media content. Things like Facebook and fake news—you can’t intervene in that because it’s not devolved. I think that it’s important, because those are the platforms that are going to be most influential as we move forward. To me, it’s essential that that comes here, and that will secure and assure the independence, whatever the editorial independence is, because this place will be protecting it. 

[117]   Dr McElroy: Yn fwy nag annibyniaeth, hwyrach, beth sydd angen mwy ohono ydy atebolrwydd, rwy’n meddwl. Petasai mwy o bwyslais ar hynny, ac ystyried sut mae’r cyfryngau, sut mae S4C a’r BBC, yn atebol i chi ac i’r Llywodraeth yng Nghymru, rwy’n meddwl bod hynny yn hanfodol. Mae’n mynd i fod yn gyfnod o newid, yn sicr, ond fedra i ddim gweld sut mae—. Ni fyddech byth yn dechrau o fan hyn petasech chi’n cael dechrau eto, nid wyf yn meddwl. Mae’r sefyllfa, am wn i, o beth welsom ni yn 2010, efo’r cwtogi ar gyllid S4C, a’r penderfyniad hwnnw yn cael ei wneud yn Llundain—fy hun, rwy’n meddwl bod hynny’n adeg i ni weld bod newid yn hanfodol bwysig, felly. Ond, yn fwy i fod yn atebol, ac yn atebol i chi fel cynrychiolwyr pobl Cymru, sydd yn bwysig i fi, felly.

 

Dr McElroy: More than independence, perhaps, what is required is greater accountability, I think. If there was a greater emphasis on that, and a consideration of how the media, how S4C and BBC, are accountable to you and the Welsh Government, I think that that is crucial—it’s something that needs to happen. It’s going to be a period of change, certainly, but I can’t see—. You would never start from this point if you were allowed to start again. I think the position, from what I can see, from what we saw in 2010 with the cuts in S4C’s budget and the decision being made in London, makes me think that it was a time to see that change was essential. But, being more accountable, and accountable to you as the representatives of the people of Wales, is what is important to me.

[118]   Bethan Jenkins: A ydych chi’n poeni, felly, fod S4C, pan mae’n nhw’n rhoi tystiolaeth i ni, yn dweud eu bod nhw’n agnostig ynglŷn â lle mae’r atebolrwydd hynny yn gorwedd? I fod yn devil’s advocate, rwy’n meddwl weithiau eu bod nhw’n aros yn dawel efallai gyda DCMS achos maen nhw’n poeni o ble mae eu ffrwd ariannol nhw’n dod. Yn hytrach na bod yn heriol, fel rydych wedi ei ddweud, mae angen iddyn nhw fod yn y cyd-destun yn gwthio eu hunain ymlaen yn y byd sydd ohoni. Felly, rwyf jest eisiau clywed eich barn chi ar hynny.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Are you worried, therefore, that S4C, when they give us evidence, say that they’re agnostic about where that accountability lies? To be a devil’s advocate, I think sometimes they keep quiet with the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, because they’re worried about their funding stream. Rather than being challenging, as you said, they need to be, in the context, pushing themselves forward in today’s world. I’d just like your view on that.

[119]   Mr Marshall: Y ffaith ar hyn o bryd yw bod yr arian i gyd yn cael ei reoli—y £6.7 miliwn o’r DCMS a’r gweddill sy’n dod allan o’r ffi drwydded—Llundain sydd wedi trafod hwnnw ac mae’r ddêl yna wedi dod o fanna. Rwy’n dallt y sefyllfa o ran S4C. Ni fyddwn i eisiau cymryd barn un ffordd neu’r llall, ond dyna lle rwy’n meddwl ei fod yn bwysig o ran ni yn dweud ‘Cytuno’—mae eisiau i ni gael yr atebolrwydd yna yma yng Nghymru er mwyn sicrhau mai’r gwasanaeth yna yw beth sydd yn addas ar gyfer cynulleidfaoedd yng Nghymru, yn y Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg hefyd.

 

Mr Marshall: I think that the truth there is that all of the financing is managed—whether that’s £6.7 million from DCMS or the remainder that comes from the licence fee—it has come from London. That’s where the discussions have taken place about that funding. I understand the position that S4C is in. I wouldn’t want to take a view one way or the other, but that’s where I think it’s important that we have this agreement, because we do need that accountability here in Wales and we want to ensure that the service is appropriate for Welsh audiences, in the Welsh language and in the English language also.

 

[120]   Bethan Jenkins: Dai, wyt ti wedi gorffen?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Dai, have you finished?

[121]   Dai Lloyd: Rydych yn cyfarfod â phwyllgor sydd, rwy’n credu—. Am y tro cyntaf, yn y Cynulliad yma mae gennym ni bwyllgor sydd yn gallu o leiaf edrych ar y materion hyn. Wrth gwrs, nid oes gennym ni bŵer, ond mewn cyn-Gynulliadau nid oedd yna hyd yn oed bwyllgor lle roeddem yn cael edrych ar y peth. Felly, mae yna gamau bach yn mynd ymlaen, a dyna i gyd roeddwn i eisiau ei hyrwyddo, gyda’ch caredigrwydd, Gadeirydd, a’ch amynedd.

 

Dai Lloyd: You are meeting with a committee—. For the first time, in this Assembly we have a committee that is at least able to look at these issues. Of course, we don’t have any power, but in previous Assemblies there wasn’t even a committee that had the remit of looking at these issues. So, it’s baby steps as we go on, and that’s all I wanted to promote, by your leave, Chair, and with your patience.

[122]   Bethan Jenkins: Pleser. Rydym ni wedi cyffwrdd ar y berthynas efo’r BBC, ond mae gan Jeremy fwy o gwestiynau ar hynny nawr.

 

Bethan Jenkins: My pleasure. We’ve touched on the relationship with the BBC, but Jeremy has more questions on that issue.

[123]   Jeremy Miles: Mae’r rhan fwyaf o’r cwestiynau wedi cael eu cyfro, ond jest un cwestiwn. Yn eich papur chi, Mr Marshall, rydych chi’n sôn:

 

Jeremy Miles: Most of my questions have been covered, but just one question—in your paper, Mr Marshall, you say in English:

[124]   ‘Relationship with the BBC—I strongly recommend that the committee arrange a visit to EITB in the Basque Country to see how a PSB within a nation with a high level of devolution operates in two languages and in more than one medium.’

 

[125]   A ydych chi’n awgrymu yn y paragraff yna ei fod e’n bosib rhedeg y gwasanaeth—i fynd yn ôl i’r cwestiwn y gwnaeth Lee ofyn, i ddweud y gwir—o fewn un darlledwr, hynny yw, y BBC? Ai dyna beth sydd y tu ôl i’r paragraff hynny neu a ydw i’n gor-ddarllen?

 

Are you suggesting in that paragraph that it’s possible to run the service—to return to the question that Lee asked—within one broadcaster, that is, the BBC? Is that what lies behind that paragraph?

[126]   Mr Marshall: Na, rwyf jest yn meddwl fod hwnnw yn un model ohono fo, ond mae’n enghraifft—dyna pam rwy’n meddwl ei fod yn werth edrych ar enghreifftiau eraill, a’r ffaith fy mod i wedi bod yn lwcus i fod yna i weld sut maen nhw’n gweithredu. Nid ydynt jest yn gweithredu ar draws dwy iaith—maen nhw’n gweithio ar draws mwy nag un disgyblaeth hefyd. Maen nhw’n cydweithio—mae’r adnoddau yna i gyd yn cael eu rhoi mewn i un pot ac mae’n help iddyn nhw gynnig gwasanaeth ehangach. Efallai bod yna fodd, achos mae yna lot o gydweithio efo’r BBC ar hyn o bryd—rydym yn gweld y model y mae’r BBC yn ei ddatblygu yn yr Alban efo BBC Alba, ac rwy’n siŵr pan fydd yna ymgynghoriad gan y DCMS, fe fyddan nhw yn edrych ac yn gofyn y cwestiwn yna, ‘Wel, dyma sy’n digwydd yn yr Alban, dyma sy’n digwydd yng Ngogledd Iwerddon, dyma sy’n digwydd yng Nghymru ar hyn o bryd—pam nad ydy’r gwaith yna yn ddim yn medru cael ei uno?’

 

Mr Marshall: No, I just think that it was worth looking at that model, because it’s an example—I think it’s valuable to look at other examples. I’ve been fortunate enough to be there and see how they operate. They don’t just operate over two languages—they’re also cross-disciplinary. All of those resources are put together in one pot, and that helps them then to offer a broader service. I think that, perhaps, there is a way, because there is a lot of collaboration with the BBC presently—we see the model that the BBC is developing in Scotland with BBC Alba, and I’m sure that the consultation that DCMS is holding will be asking this question: ‘Well, this is what is happening in Scotland, in Northern Ireland and in Wales currently, so why isn’t that work something that we can bring together?’

 

[127]   Mae hynny’n opsiwn y mae’n rhaid edrych arno, achos efallai bod yna ffyrdd o arbed arian o ran gweinyddiaeth a’r ochr yna, ond dyna lle mae’n bwysig o ran yr atebolrwydd, sef bod hynny i gyd ddim yn bodoli mewn un corff sydd yn cael ei lywodraethu o Lundain, a dyna ydy’r perygl. Mae o’n medru gweithio—dyna pam fy mod yn awgrymu eich bod chi’n mynd i weld EITB i weld sut maen nhw’n gweithredu. Nid wyf yn gwybod beth yw eu sefyllfa llywodraethiant nhw, ac mae hynny’n rhywbeth diddorol i edrych arno, nid fy mod yn annog eich gyrru chi i gyd draw i Bilbao—

 

That’s an option that we need to look at, because there may be ways of saving money in terms of administration and that side of things, but that is where it’s important to have the accountability, so that that doesn’t all exist within one body that is run from London, because that’s the danger, isn’t it? I think these things can work, and that’s why I suggested you should go and look at EITB and how they operate, because I don’t know what their governance arrangements are, and that is an interesting topic to look at—not that I’m encouraging sending you all to Bilbao—

 

[128]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym wedi meddwl am y peth yn sicr. Diolch am gynnig. [Chwerthin.]

 

Bethan Jenkins: We’ve certainly thought about it. It was a nice offer to hear. [Laughter.]

[129]   Mr Marshall: Dyna ydy’r peth: hyd nes eich bod chi fewn yn rhywle ac yn gweld sut mae rhywbeth yn gweithredu—. Mae yna fodelau eraill yn bodoli, a phan mae’r Llywodraeth yn mynd i edrych ar hwn yn Llundain, mi fyddan nhw yn edrych ar fodelau ar gyfer darlledwyr amlieithyddol ar draws Ewrop, ac mae eisiau gweld beth sy’n gweithio, beth sydd ddim yn gweithio, beth sy’n berthnasol a beth sydd ddim yn berthnasol.

 

Mr Marshall: That’s the thing: until you go somewhere and see how they operate, you don’t know. You do need to be aware that there are other models, and I think that when the Government is going to look at this in London, they will look at different broadcasting models, in terms of the European ones that deal in many languages, and we need to look at what’s working, what’s relevant and what’s not.

[130]   Bethan Jenkins: A oes gennych chi unrhyw beth arall?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Do you have anything else to add?

[131]   Dr McElroy: Mi fuaswn i yn dweud yn union yr un peth, achos rwy’n meddwl, yn arbennig pan rydym yn edrych ymlaen at yr adroddiad a fydd yn dod ar S4C, mae angen mwy o dystiolaeth a mwy o enghreifftiau rhyngwladol. Ond, os oes angen hynny arnom ni, mae’n rhaid i rywun ofyn am y gwaith hwnnw hefyd.

 

Dr McElroy: I would say exactly the same thing, because I think we’re looking forward to the forthcoming report on S4C, and we need more evidence and more international examples. If we need that, someone has to request that work as well. 

[132]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. A oes rhywbeth gennych chi i ddod yn ôl ar hynny?

 

Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Do you have another question on that?

[133]   Jeremy Miles: Mae gen i gwestiwn ar y publishing body, ond mae Hannah yn arwain ar hynny.

 

Jeremy Miles: I have a question on the publishing body, but I think Hannah’s leading on that.

[134]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Hannah. 

 

[135]   Hannah Blythyn: Diolch. I think in the previous answers you’ve said how the way that people consume content has changed, and that the digital and broadcasting platform is completely different to when S4C was established. I think that various barriers exist, probably, for S4C in terms of the visibility on those digital platforms—for example, it’s now on iPlayer, but you’ve got to scroll through and it’s in the corner at the very end, or smart tv is dominated by the big players like Amazon and Netflix. So, what could be done to improve the visibility of S4C on those digital platforms?

 

10:30

 

[136]   Dr McElroy: I think, for me, that in a sense what I was getting at with iPlayer is to think very much about how, if the BBC is thinking of having a BBC Wales channel, that is one way of being able to make that content more visible. At the same time, I don’t think most of us when we go on to iPlayer search by channel. I know that I don’t tend to do that—I look for a particular programme, so I already know of its existence. Nonetheless, that’s another way, I think, where you could actually start to push content—if people are actually interested in watching Hinterland, what are the chances that they might also be interested in watching Byw Celwydd, for example? So, I think there are opportunities within iPlayer to be able to further develop, and there seems to be a mindset within the BBC now to do more of that. I think, actually, the pressure, given the BBC Scotland development, will only grow with that.

 

[137]   Mr Marshall: It’s interesting, when you go into iPlayer Radio, Radio Cymru content is searchable within iPlayer Radio, but because S4C is separate from the iPlayer it doesn’t have the same prominence—as you say, you go in there, it’s down at the end and you’ve got to go across to find it. There is a Wales category within the iPlayer, so that should be having prominence. But, imagine if you were going into iPlayer now and 35 Diwrnod was there, that would bring people in—people would watch that out of curiosity. So, that’s how you ensure, and that is within the BBC’s gift to be able to ensure that every now and again, if there is a flagship S4C piece of content, they could do that tomorrow if they wanted to.

 

[138]   Dr McElroy: I think that goes back to the question you asked, Lee. Is there still a value in public service broadcasting? If you had an entirely commercial model, you wouldn’t worry about surprising people, you’d give them what you know that they already want and keep giving them more and more of that. I think one of the ways in which you get a public service value is by actually trying to expand people’s horizons and introduce new content. It’s as much a curatorial as a personalising approach. You’re using the same technology, but you’ve got a very different set of values behind it.

 

[139]   Mr Marshall: I think that’s why young people are moving away from traditional broadcasts, because that content is now being created—different content. You know, we’re in a position here—how does Wales actually become innovative? We’re drivers in creating that innovative type of content that, you know—it would have been great if unboxing toys had been started by somebody in Rhondda or Porthmadog, you know. It didn’t, but how do we actually make sure that, especially now with the digital competence framework coming through, we’re going to be teaching young people how to create content? I think the big thing with Donaldson was, ‘How do you stop young people being consumers of content—how do you turn them into content creators?’ So, there’s a huge economic potential here to develop Wales as a content-creation space.

 

[140]   Dr McElroy: Who can also naturally create bilingually, and I think that’s also something that we have to recognise as a major asset.

 

[141]   Mr Marshall: Again, how do you use that technology to make sure that you’re creating something in Welsh that can be seen internationally in other languages so that the content is accessible—it’s made in Welsh but it goes to the world and is able to be accessed by people in different countries?

 

[142]   Bethan Jenkins: Hannah?

 

[143]   Hannah Blythyn: To expand on that, you’ve talked about the idea of this Welsh Netflix that has Welsh content available online—I don’t know whether Huw, specifically, you’d be able to expand on what you think the benefits of this are. Could that become part of links to education with schools like you’ve just alluded to as well?

 

[144]   Mr Marshall: Hwb is the platform that supplies content into schools. S4C does have a link into that. It was something, when I was with S4C, we were working with them to get the content. I don’t know where they’re at with getting that content in there, but there is scope to get content into those places and reach the audiences. For me, for young people in Wales, if part of their homework was, ‘Watch this piece of content’—as part of their homework or their studies—it would actually get them to engage with content. I think historically, there was a fear of putting S4C Welsh language content into schools because they thought it would be, ‘Oh, it’s S4C—it’s school, it’s education’. That’s changing now because people are finding that content.

 

[145]   I think the potential, going back to Lee’s point, saying that we need that traditional broadcaster—there’s nothing to stop you creating a Welsh Netflix tomorrow. I could set that up. You know, there are platforms out there—I could get that channel on every smart tv platform. There’d be a cost to it, but then what you need to do is fill it with content. So, that’s where it comes to the rights—you could go into S4C’s archive and pick out the content, work through the rights issues and put them up there. It could be done within, literally, a couple of months.

 

[146]   Bethan Jenkins: Mae Jeremy eisiau gofyn cwestiwn ar hyn yn benodol, os ydy hynny’n iawn.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy has a question on this specifically.

[147]   Jeremy Miles: Why on earth would you set up a separate publisher body to do that? If you’re operating in a market environment, you would do that because you’ve got separate shareholders, separate money and separate profit—all of those things—but if you were a dominant player in the market, as S4C is in its segment of the content market, you would just have a great idea and do it, wouldn’t you? So, why could that not happen within S4C? Perhaps you’re not suggesting necessarily it’s not to

 

[148]   Dr McElroy: I think it could. I don’t think it has to be what Huw is suggesting here—something that could be separate; I don’t think it has to be separate. I think it has to have a clarity about what that service would be providing, as well as still—. Because, you know, your mam is still watching linear television—

 

[149]   Mr Marshall: It’s on now. [Laughter.]

 

[150]   Dr McElroy: It’s on right now. And many of us do. Many of us are still deeply attached to that, and the schedule does have its place and will, I think, continue to have its place with certain forms of content: sport and news are obvious examples there. I don’t think we should be talking at this point of an either/or, but I think that there needs to be a clarity of what both forms can deliver and the kind of audiences that both forms can service.

 

[151]   Jeremy Miles: Achos mae’n debyg y byddai manteision i gael brand S4C ar y corff cyhoeddi arall.

 

Jeremy Miles: Because I assume there would be advantages to having the S4C brand on the other broadcasting channels.

 

[152]   Mr Marshall: Mae’n frand adnabyddus y mae pobl yn ymwybodol ohono fo. Beth rwy’n ddweud ydy bod modd creu hynny, ac rwy’n meddwl mai’r broblem ar hyn o bryd ydy bod S4C yn gwneud hynny—mae ganddyn nhw wasanaeth gwylio ar-lein—ond jest y costau—. Mae mynd ar blatfformau gwahanol yn golygu bod yna gost o ymwneud â hynny. Oherwydd yr infrastructure o ran y ffordd mae S4C yn gwneud hynny, mae’n anoddach gwneud hynny o ran ‘bolt-io’ hynny i fewn i systemau gwahanol. Roedd yn her cysylltu iPlayer â chynnwys S4C. Nid oedd yn fater o jest fflicio switsh ac roedd pob dim yn ymddangos yna; fe aeth lot fawr o waith i mewn i hynny. Ond roeddech yn sôn yn fanna am blatfformau gwahanol. Mae’n her ar gyfer bob un, mae’n cymryd amser, mae’n cymryd pobl ac nid oes ganddynt y manpower ar hyn o bryd, hyd yn oed os byddan nhw eisiau, i fedru gwneud hynny.  

 

Mr Marshall: It’s a recognisable brand and people know about it. But what I’m saying is that there is a way that we can create that, and I think the problem at the moment is that S4C is doing that—they’ve got an online viewing service—but just in terms of the costs—. If you’re going to go on different platforms, that does cost. Because of the infrastructure in the way that S4C does that, it’s more difficult to do that in terms of bolting that onto different systems. It was a challenge to link iPlayer to S4C content. It wasn’t just a matter of flicking a switch and everything appeared there; a great deal of work went into that. But you were talking there about different platforms. They all have their own challenges, it takes time, it takes people and they just don’t have the manpower currently, even if they wanted to, to be able to do that.  

[153]   Dr McElroy: A dyna’r math o beth rwy’n meddwl sydd yn hollbwysig o ran cydweithio efo’r BBC, ond hefyd o feddwl yn ehangach achos, i mi, beth sy’n fy nharo i ydy bod y sgiliau yna yn hanfodol bwysig i ni yn y cyfryngau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a’r Saesneg. Mae’n rhaid ein bod ni yng Nghymru yn gallu cyflawni hynny, ond mae hynny’n rhywbeth enfawr o ran y sgiliau a’r gweithlu.

 

Dr McElroy: And that’s the kind of thing that I think is all-important as regards collaboration with the BBC, but also as regards thinking more broadly, because what strikes me is that those skills are vitally important to us in the media through the medium of Welsh and English. We in Wales have to be able to achieve that, but that is a huge ask from the point of the skills and the workforce.

[154]   Mr Marshall: Byddai’n grêt gweld sut mae cynnwys y BBC, ITV a phobl eraill sydd wedi ei greu o fewn Cymru yn ymddangos o fewn un gofod. Mae’n digwydd ar hyn o bryd o fewn yr iPlayer o fewn gofod Cymru ond, yn amlwg, nid yw’r cynnwys Cymraeg yn cael yr amlygrwydd sydd yna. Ond i fynd yn ôl at rywbeth roeddwn yn dweud, o ran yr EPG, mae’r EPG yn dal yna, mae o’n bwysig, ond fel ti’n dweud, mae pobl rŵan yn chwilio am gynnwys mewn ffyrdd gwahanol. Mae pobl yn siarad efo dyfais a gofyn am rywbeth. Nid wyf yn gwybod ar ba sianel—mae gen i Now TV—oedd y cynnwys wedi ymddangos—rwyf jest yn dweud enw’r rhaglen ac mae’n ymddangos. Mae hwnnw’n rhoi her o ran technoleg, ond os ydy bob dim i mewn yna sydd yn medru creu yr endid yna, sut wyt ti wedyn yn cydweithio efo’r byd addysg fel bod yna gynnwys addysg yna a bod yna gynnwys y cyngor celfyddydau o ran archif sgrin a sain yr amgueddfa? Mae yna lot o bobl yng Nghymru yn berchen ar gynnwys, ond sut ydym yn ei gael i bobl?

 

Mr Marshall: It would be great to see how the content of BBC, ITV and others that has been created in Wales would appear in one space. That happens currently within the iPlayer within the Wales space but, obviously, the Welsh language content doesn’t have the same prominence. But to go back to something I was saying on the EPG, the EPG is still there and it’s important, but people are now searching for content in different ways. They may speak into some sort of device and ask for something. I don’t know on what channel something is—I have Now TV—and I just say the name of the programme and it appears. That poses a further technological challenge, but if everything is in there that can create that entity, how do you then collaborate with the education sphere so that there is education content and arts council content in terms of the museum’s screen and sound archive? Many people in Wales are in possession of content, but how do we get it to people?   

[155]   Dr McElroy: O ran y cwestiwn ehangach y gwnaethoch ei ofyn ynglŷn â Facebook ac ati, rwy’n meddwl mai dyna’r math o gwestiwn y dylech chi fod hefyd yn ei ofyn pan fydd Peter Bazalgette yn cychwyn ar ei waith o ran y strategaeth ddiwydiannol a gafodd ei chyhoeddi gan BIS rhyw fis yn ôl, achos mae hwn yn mynd i fod yn gwestiwn i bawb tu fewn i’r deyrnas. Hynny yw, mae modd rhoi pethau ar Facebook, ond pwy sydd eu piau nhw a phwy sy’n cael yr ystadegau ar ôl hynny? Mae hynny yn mynd i fod yn her i bawb. Felly, i mi, o edrych ar y pecyn gwaith mae o’n mynd i arwain, dylai hwnnw fod yn rhan hanfodol.

 

Dr McElroy: As regards the broader question you asked about Facebook, and so on, I think that’s the kind of question you should also be asking when Peter Bazalgette starts on his work on the industrial strategy that was announced by BIS about a month ago, because this is going to be a question for everyone in the UK. That is, it’s possible to put things on Facebook, but who owns them and who gets the statistics after that? That’s going to be a challenge for everyone. So, for me, in looking at the package of work that he will lead, I think that should be an essential part of it.

[156]   Mr Marshall: Dyna pam mae’n mynd yn ôl at y pwynt roeddech chi’n wneud. Mae’n bwysig o ran cael y gofod yna. Mae’n bwysig bod y cynnwys yna ddim jest yn byw mewn un lle; bod o ddim yn byw mewn sianel unionlin; bod o ddim yn bodoli mewn porth cynnwys. Roeddwn i’n cyfeirio at Facebook. Mae’r nifer o bobl sydd yn gwylio cynnyrch—. Rwy’n gwylio mwy o S4C ar Facebook nag wyf i ar set deledu. Rwy’n gwylio eitemau sydd wedi dod o lefydd fel Pnawn Da a Heno yn rheolaidd. Roeddwn i’n sbïo ar yr ystadegau y bore yma; mae’r rheini yn cael views ond rydych chi hefyd yn medru gweld o’r nifer o likes a shares bod yna genuine interaction yn mynd ymlaen rhwng y gynulleidfa a’r platfform. Efallai nad ydynt yn gwylio S4C ac ni ddylem fod yn obsessed efo ffigurau gwylio. Os ydyn nhw yn ymwneud efo cynnwys S4C ar Facebook, grêt, ac maen nhw yn ei wneud o yn eu degau o filoedd ar hyn o bryd.

 

Mr Marshall: That’s why it goes back to the point you were making. It’s important that we have that space. It’s important that that content does not exist only in one place; that it’s not just on a linear channel; that it’s not just in a content portal. I was referring to Facebook. The number of people watching content—. I watch more of S4C on Facebook than I do on a tv set. I watch items that have come from programmes such as Pnawn Da and Heno regularly. I was looking at the statistics this morning; those get views, but you can also see from the number of likes and shares that there is genuine interaction taking place between the audience and the platform. These are people who may not watch S4C and we shouldn’t be obsessed with viewing figures. If they engage with S4C’s content on Facebook, that’s great, and they are doing it in their tens of thousands at present. 

[157]   Bethan Jenkins: Nid oes lot o amser gennym ni ar ôl. Mae gan Dai gwestiwn bras ar systemau rhyngwladol; rwy’n credu bod yna’n dal un cwestiwn i’w ofyn.

 

Bethan Jenkins: We don’t have much time left. Dai has a broad question on international systems; I think there’s one question remaining.

[158]   Dai Lloyd: Oes e?

 

Dai Lloyd: Is there?

[159]   Bethan Jenkins: Yr ail un. I fod yn benodol.

 

Bethan Jenkins: The second one. To be specific.

[160]   Dai Lloyd: Rydym wedi mynd i’r afael efo cymariaethau rhyngwladol, ond roeddwn i jest eisiau mynd ar ei ôl o i ryw raddau, achos, yn naturiol, byddwch yn ymwybodol bod y rhan fwyaf o wledydd y byd yn o leiaf ddwyieithog. Prin iawn ydy’r esiamplau o wledydd sydd efo dim ond un iaith. Felly, wrth gwrs, mae’r holl fusnes yma o ddarlledu ac ati wedi bod yn her i bawb dros y byd i gyd, i wneud yn siŵr eu bod nhw’n deg efo’r ieithoedd i gyd.

 

Dai Lloyd: We have tackled international comparisons, but I just wanted to pursue it to some extent because, naturally, you’ll be aware that the majority of the nations of the world are at least bilingual. Very rare are the examples of countries that are monolingual. So, of course, this whole issue of broadcasting and so forth has been a challenge all over the world to make sure that there is equitability between the various languages.

 

[161]   Roeddwn mas yn Slofenia sbel yn ôl ac y mae pedair iaith yn fanna ac nid oedd problem o gwbl, yn naturiol, ac nid oedd dim gwrthdaro. Mae rhai ohonom ni’n ddigon hen—. Nid wyf yn credu bod neb arall rownd y bwrdd yma yn ddigon hen i gofio’r byd darlledu yng Nghymru cyn 1982, pan oedd allbwn Cymraeg yn gorfod bod ar BBC a TWW a phethau felly. Wrth gwrs, roedd yr allbwn Cymraeg yn cael ei wthio i ganol y nos am nad oeddent eisiau ypsetio’r mwyafrif, neu’n gynnar iawn yn y bore. Dyna pam mae’n bwysig i rai ohonom ni fod yr annibyniaeth yno. Ond beth yw profiad gwledydd eraill sydd efo ieithoedd lleiafrifol? Fel ti’n ei ddweud, yng Ngwlad y Basg, os ydy’r ddwy iaith—y brif iaith a’r iaith leiafrifol—yn gweithredu efo’i gilydd, a oes yna brofiad cyfatebol? Hynny yw, yn y Fasgeg a oes yn rhaid i ti wylio Heddiw neu Y Dydd am 11.30 y nos, ynteu a ydy’r system yn gweithio’n wahanol?

 

I was out in Slovenia a while ago, where there are four languages and there was no problem whatsoever, naturally, and there was no conflict. Some of us are old enough—. I don’t think anyone else around the table is old enough to remember the pre-1982 televisual landscape, when Welsh language output had to be on the BBC and TWW and so forth. Of course, the Welsh language output would be put on in the middle of the night because they didn’t want to upset the majority, or put on very early in the morning. That’s why it’s so important for so many of us that there is this independence. But what is the experience of other nations with minority languages? You refer to the Basque Country, where the two languages—the majority language and the minority language—work together. Is there an equivalent experience? That is, in the Basque language do you have to watch Today at 11.30 at night, or is the system different?

 

[162]   Mr Marshall: Un peth sydd yn ddiddorol yng Ngwlad y Basg ydy, o ran y rhaglen newyddion, o ran y sianel Sbaeneg, os ydyn nhw’n siarad efo rhywun ym Masgeg ac y mae’r cyflwynydd yn siarad Basgeg, maen nhw’n gwneud hynny ym Masgeg ac yn ei is-deitlo yn Sbaeneg. Mae rhywun wedi dweud bod y Gymraeg yn iaith porous  iawn—rydym yn fodlon derbyn gwneud cyfweliad Saesneg wrth ochr cae rygbi, ond os ydy’r ddau berson eisiau siarad Cymraeg—. Roedd yna enghraifft hilarious ar Facebook yn ddiweddar efo—ti’n gwybod pwy oedd o. Roeddent yn cyfweld yn Saesneg, yn amlwg dau siaradwr Cymraeg yn gallu siarad Cymraeg, ac ymateb yn Gymraeg achos dyna beth oedd yn naturiol. Dyna beth sydd yn bwysig, sef sut rydych yn sicrhau bod y Gymraeg yn cael ei gweld o fewn—. I fi, roedd yn od gweld, pan oedd llifogydd yn Llanberis, gohebydd Cymraeg yn siarad efo rhywun a oedd yn amlwg yn anghyffyrddus yn siarad Saesneg. Yn siarad Saesneg, roedd o mor annaturiol ac yn annheg. Dyna sy’n bwysig: sut ydym yn gwneud yn siŵr bod y Gymraeg yn—? Dyna beth y maen nhw’n ei wneud: maen nhw’n rhoi parch i’r Fasgeg ar blatfformau Sbaeneg ac wedyn, y ffordd arall, mae’r parch yn mynd yr un ffordd y ffordd arall.

 

Mr Marshall: One thing that is interesting in the Basque Country, from the point of view of the Spanish channel’s news programme, is if they’re talking to somebody in Basque and the presenter speaks Basque, then they do it in the Basque language and subtitle it in Spanish. But, as someone has said, Welsh is a very porous language—we’re very willing to accept an English interview on the pitch side, on a rugby field, but if the two people speak Welsh—. There was a hilarious example on Facebook recently with—you know who it was. They were interviewing in English, clearly both speakers were able to speak Welsh, and they responded in Welsh because that's what came naturally. That is what is important: how do you ensure that the Welsh language is seen within—. In my view, it was strange to see, when there were floods in Llanberis, a Welsh-speaking correspondent talking to somebody who was obviously uncomfortable speaking English. It was so unnatural and unfair. That’s what’s important: how do we ensure that the Welsh language—? That is what they are doing: they respect the Basque language on Spanish platforms and so that respect then has to be a two-way street.

[163]   Dr McElroy: Bod dwyieithrwydd yn gwbl naturiol, felly, a dylai bod hynny’n cael ei adlewyrchu ar y sgrin. Nid yw hynny’n broblem, ond mae’r enghreifftiau yn wahanol iawn ac y mae gwledydd gwahanol wedi ymateb i hyn yn—. Er enghraifft, mae yna rhai gwledydd lle rydych yn gallu gweld—. Tu mewn i Gatalonia, er enghraifft, y peth mawr sy’n wahanol ydy, rydym yn sôn am wlad sydd yn gyfoethog dros ben. Mae’r sefyllfa yn wahanol iawn. Mae hynny’n hanfodol o ran sut y mae Catalonia yn edrych ar pam y maen nhw eisiau gadael Sbaen, felly.

 

Dr McElroy: That’s because bilingualism is completely natural, and therefore that should be reflected on the screen. That’s not a problem, but the examples differ a great deal and various countries have responded to this—. For example, there are some countries where you can see—. In Catalonia, for example, the great difference is that we’re talking there about a country that is very wealthy. The situation is very different. That is quite fundamental in terms of how Catalonia looks at how it wants to leave Spain, for example.

 

[164]   Felly, mae’r sefyllfa ariannol yn wahanol iawn a dyna pam mae modd, rwy’n credu, cael gymaint o sianeli gwahanol. Nid yr un sefyllfa yw honno, er enghraifft, â sefyllfa’r bobl sydd yn siarad iaith Sweden sydd yn byw y tu mewn i’r Ffindir, er enghraifft, lle mae’n dal i fod rhywfaint o’r hen fodel, lle mae yna gyfuniad o ddeunydd.

 

So, that financial situation, which is so different, means that they can have a great number of channels. That is not the same position as, for example, that of the people who speak Swedish, but who live in Finland, for example, where there is still something of the old model, where there is this combination of content.

[165]   Mr Marshall: Buaswn i’n dweud bod Ffriseg yn eithaf tebyg, o ran yr Iseldiroedd, lle mae o’n dal yn cael ei weld fel rhywbeth bach ar yr ymylon ac yn ffitio i mewn. Rwy’n mynd i Wlad y Basg, ac rwyf wedi cael y profiad o fod yno cwpwl o weithiau i weld sut y maen nhw’n gweithredu, ond fel rwyt yn ei ddweud, mae’r modelau yna, mae ganddyn nhw ddwy sianel, ond hefyd, o ran y Llywodraeth yng Ngwlad y Basg, maen nhw’n gweld diwylliant a chynnwys yn yr iaith Fasgeg fel gyrrwr economaidd. Mae hynny’n rhywbeth y mae’n rhaid inni ddechrau ei weld yng Nghymru: sut ydym yn gweld y ffaith ein bod ni’n wlad ddwyieithog? Sut ydym yn defnyddio’r sgìl dwyieithrwydd yna fel gyrrwr economaidd?

 

Mr Marshall: I would say that Frisian is quite similar, in terms of the Netherlands, because it’s still seen as something that is in the minority and on the periphery. I go to the Basque Country and I’ve had the experience of being there a couple of times to see how they operate there, but as you say, the models there, they have two channels, but also, the Basque Government see the culture and content in the Basque language as an economic driver. That is something that we must start to see in Wales: how do we see the fact that we are a bilingual country? How can we see that bilingual skill as an economic driver?

[166]   Bethan Jenkins: Sydd yn dod â ni at gwestiwn Suzy ynglŷn â’r economi. Dyma’r cwestiwn olaf ynglŷn â’r economi.

 

Bethan Jenkins: That brings us on to Suzy’s question on the economy. This is the final question on the economy.

[167]   Suzy Davies: Nid oeddwn i’n gwybod am hynny, sori.

 

Suzy Davies: I’m sorry, I didn’t know about that.

[168]   Bethan Jenkins: Jest ynglŷn â sut rydym yn gallu gwneud mwy o botensial ynglŷn â datblygu S4C. Rwy’n gwybod yr oeddech yn sôn am S4C rhyngwladol ac yn y blaen, ond—

Bethan Jenkins: Just in relation to how we can have a greater impact in terms of developing S4C and the potential there. I know you were talking about developing S4C on an international stage, but—

 

[169]   Suzy Davies: Yes. Just to expand on the earlier question on how to make S4C’s activities more commercial, really. I’m not really talking about advertising as such. I think one of you alluded a bit earlier on to creating a set of skills here, as a country, that we can market as well. Can you speak a little bit about—? Can you tell us something new about the economic potential of S4C? [Laughter.] Sorry, well, you know, does it come up—[Inaudible.]

 

[170]   Dr McElroy: I’m not sure I understand what something new per se is—[Inaudible.]

 

[171]   Suzy Davies: I was just trying to think of a polite way of saying it. You know where I’m coming from. We have the evidence from five years ago, so I’m just wondering if you have any comments on whether that’s come to pass really.

 

[172]   Dr McElroy: I think it’s more a case of saying that the skills to be able to monetise content, to export content and to manage the changing context in which content windows are sequentialised is becoming more important now in the landscape as it looks.

 

10:45

 

[173]   So, arguably, I think Wales has been incredibly successful, for example, in attracting inward investment in the way in which film and television shoots come into Wales. That has been possible, in part, because of the craft skills that exist in the Welsh workforce, and it’s one of the things that are consistently spoken about. I think there has maybe been an under-investment, or a lack of sufficient attention—and I think it’s fair to say that, probably, higher education has its role to play in this as well, and needs to do more around thinking about the more, kind of, business, commercial skills for thinking about how you actually monetise that content. I don’t think that we’ve really met that challenge in as equal a way as we have when we’ve been attracting people into Wales through our landscapes and through our craft skills base.

 

[174]   Mr Marshall: I think, if we’re creating content in the Welsh language, in order to get that to wider audiences you do need to adapt that content for other markets, whether it be via subtitling or dubbing. But there is a skill there. We talk about Brexit. If we are going to be out of Europe—well, we are going to be, by the looks of it—currently, places like the Netherlands are where the localisation and internationalisation of content happens. Wales should be that place within the UK. If we want to get that content that is made in Welsh or in English, how do you actually make sure that that content can go out into international audiences and monetise around that content from source? So, the skill is bilingualism—being able to understand English and another language is a key skill—because you can see when you’re actually turning that piece of English content into another language—in our case, Welsh—we can see where the nuances come up. It’s actually a skill set. But that is something that you can actually sell then as a benefit for English-language content, because we are the people who can look at that and say, ‘Right, if we do this in Welsh, this is how it works. We’ve actually done the hard work of internationalising that content.’ So, that’s something new that could actually be developed economically around the fact that we are actually making content in one language and wanting to naturally convert it into other languages, because we are bilingual. It is a unique skill in the UK.

 

[175]   Suzy Davies: Yes. And is that a job for the broadcaster itself—in this case S4C—or would this be for an external body?

 

[176]   Mr Marshall: No, I think that’s a new industry. It’s a completely new industry that could be developed here.

 

[177]   Bethan Jenkins: Dyna’r oll sydd gennym ni o ran amser heddiw. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod i mewn. Rydw i’n credu ei bod wedi bod yn ddiddorol iawn. Rydw i’n gobeithio y byddwch chi’n edrych ar yr hyn sydd yn dod o’r adolygiad penodol ar S4C. Os oes unrhyw wybodaeth ychwanegol, fel yr erthygl sydd o’ch blaen chi ynglŷn â Sweden, rwy’n credu, byddai hynny o ddiddordeb i ni.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Well, that is all the time available to us. Thank you very much for coming in. I think it has been extremely interesting. I hope that you will look at what will emanate from the specific review on S4C. If you have any additional information, such as the article before you that you referred to, about Sweden I think it was, that might be of interest to us.

 

[178]   Dr McElroy: Fel rydw i’n ei ddweud, mae yna fodd inni gyflawni mwy, ond mae angen i rywun ofyn inni wneud rhywfaint o hynny.

 

Dr McElroy: As I say, it is possible for us to achieve more, but we need to be asked to do that.

 

[179]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym wedi clywed y neges. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi.

 

Bethan Jenkins: Yes, we’ve heard your message. Thank you very much.

10:48

 

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o’r Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Meeting

 

Cynnig:

 

Motion:

 

bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).

 

that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).

 

Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.

 

 

[180]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn symud ymlaen yn awr at eitem 3 a’r cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o’r sesiwn. A ydyw pawb yn hapus â hynny? Diolch.

 

Bethan Jenkins: We now move on to item 3—motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the session. Is everybody happy and content with that? Thank you.

 

Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.

 

 

Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:48.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:48.