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Cofnod y Trafodion
The Record of Proceedings

Y Pwyllgor Diwylliant, y Gymraeg a Chyfathrebu

The Culture, Welsh Language and Communications Committee




Agenda’r Cyfarfod
Meeting Agenda

Trawsgrifiadau’r Pwyllgor
Committee Transcripts








4....... Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest


5....... BBC: Craffu Cyffredinol ar y Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol
BBC: General Scrutiny of the Director-General


33..... Craffu ar y Gyllideb gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi a Seilwaith

......... Budget Scrutiny with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure


53      Craffu ar y Gyllideb gyda Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes Budget Scrutiny with the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language       


80..... Papurau i’w Nodi

......... Papers to Note


80..... Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod

......... Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting







Cofnodir y trafodion yn yr iaith y llefarwyd hwy ynddi yn y pwyllgor. Yn ogystal, cynhwysir trawsgrifiad o’r cyfieithu ar y pryd. Lle y mae cyfranwyr wedi darparu cywiriadau i’w tystiolaeth, nodir y rheini yn y trawsgrifiad.


The proceedings are reported in the language in which they were spoken in the committee. In addition, a transcription of the simultaneous interpretation is included. Where contributors have supplied corrections to their evidence, these are noted in the transcript.


Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members in attendance


Hannah Blythyn


Dawn Bowden


Suzy Davies

Ceidwadwyr Cymreig
Welsh Conservatives

Neil Hamilton

UKIP Cymru
UKIP Wales

Bethan Jenkins

Plaid Cymru (Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor)
The Party of Wales (Committee Chair)

Dai Lloyd

Plaid Cymru
The Party of Wales

Jeremy Miles


Lee Waters



Eraill yn bresennol
Others in attendance


Manon Antoniazzi

Cyfarwyddwr, Diwylliant, Chwaraeon a Thwristiaeth
Director Culture, Sport and Tourism, Welsh Government

Alun Davies

Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes)
Assembly Member, Labour (the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language)

Rhodri Talfan Davies

Cyfarwyddwr, BBC Cymru Wales
Director, BBC Cymru Wales

Yr Arglwydd/Lord Tony Hall

Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol y BBC
Director-General, BBC

Awen Penri

Pennaeth Cangen y Gymraeg mewn Addysg, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Welsh in Education Development Branch, Welsh Government

Alyson Rogers

Pennaeth Cyllid a Pherfformiad, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Finance and Performance, Welsh Government

Ken Skates

Aelod Cynulliad, Llafur (Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi a'r Seilwaith)
Assembly Member, Labour (the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure)

Bethan Webb

Dirprwy Gyfarwyddwr Y Gymraeg, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director, Welsh Language, Welsh Government


Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn bresennol
National Assembly for Wales officials in attendance


Osian Bowyer 

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service

Steve George


Gwyn Griffiths

Uwch-gynghorydd Cyfreithiol
Senior Legal Adviser

Adam Vaughan

Dirprwy Glerc
Deputy Clerk

Robin Wilkinson 

Y Gwasanaeth Ymchwil
Research Service


Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 09:00.
The meeting began at 09:00.


Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau, Dirprwyon a Datgan Buddiannau
Introductions, Apologies, Substitutions and Declarations of Interest


[1]          Bethan Jenkins: Diolch a chroeso i’r  pwyllgor y bore yma. Nid oes ymddiheuriadau, rwy’n falch o ddweud. Os bydd yna larwm tân, dylai pawb adael yr ystafell drwy’r allanfeydd tân penodol a dilyn cyfarwyddiadau’r tywyswyr a’r staff. Ni ddisgwylir prawf heddiw. Dylai pawb droi eu ffonau symudol i fod yn dawel.


Bethan Jenkins: A very warm welcome to the committee this morning. There are no apologies, I’m pleased to say. If there is a fire alarm, everyone should leave the room through the exits and follow the instructions of the ushers and staff. We are not expecting a test today. Everyone should turn their mobile phones to silent.


[2]          The National Assembly does operate bilingually and headphones are available to hear simultaneous translation and to adjust the audio for people who are hard of hearing. Simultaneous translation is available on channel 1 and sound amplification on channel 0.


[3]          Peidiwch â chyffwrdd y botymau ar y meicroffonau, oherwydd gall hynny amharu ar y system. Gofalwch fod y golau coch ymlaen cyn dechrau siarad. A oes unrhyw un eisiau datgan buddiannau yma heddiw? Na. Grêt.


Please don’t touch any of the buttons on the microphones, because this can disable the system. Please ensure that the red light is on before speaking. Does anyone have any declarations of interest today? No. Great.

BBC: Craffu Cyffredinol ar y Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol
BBC: General Scrutiny of the Director-General


[4]          Bethan Jenkins: Awn ymlaen, felly, at eitem 2, ‘BBC: Craffu Cyffredinol ar y Cyfarwyddwr Cyffredinol’. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod heddiw.


Bethan Jenkins: We move on, therefore, to item 2, ‘BBC: General Scrutiny of the Director-General’. Thank you very much for coming today.


[5]          Thank you very much for coming today. Obviously, as you will know, we’re a newly constituted Assembly committee for communications and with the memorandum of understanding and the BBC charter, we wanted to invite you here to hear, again, what the BBC, on a UK level, is doing in relation to Wales with regard to potential funding for the future, with regard to governance and portrayal. We do appreciate the fact that you have been here previously, but obviously, we’ve got a renewed focus on this area here in Wales, now, and hopefully, we can delve into some of these issues via the membership of this committee. I was aware that you wanted to say a few words, so if you do want to respond quickly before we go into questions, then that would be great.


[6]          Lord Hall: Yes, I thought I might just—very briefly, because obviously, your questions are the most important thing—just to say that I see the work that we’ve been doing in Wales in two ways. The current charter, where I think we, and people before me, and Rhodri, have delivered a huge amount—not least Roath Lock and not least the fact that when I went around the new site in Central Square yesterday, you begin to see, at long last, that new building taking shape. We are making some progress on portrayal and other things, which I think are very important and we’ve talked about before, and I’m sure we’ll come back to that.


[7]          I just want to say two things, because I know that two things have been really concerning you that I’ve read, and I’ve also read what’s been going on here in the Senedd. I’ll just make two points, which I hope is helpful just in terms of discussion later on. One is around funding. I spoke just over two years ago about the need for a debate about English language programming; more English language programming and was there a need for more English language programming in Wales for Wales. The debate took place on the charter. The charter is about to be signed and sealed off, I hope, this week or early next week. So, now is the time to start saying, ‘Okay, so, what are we going to deliver for the new charter against the things that we’ve all been talking about for some time?’—and some of you, I think, may say ‘too long’—but nonetheless, we’re going to deliver.


[8]          The process is this: we have our budgetary plans for April 2017 onwards for three years; we are working those things up and they go through our various board committees for signing off by March; in March, we’ll be able to say in detail, I hope, what we’ll be doing right across the piece in the BBC, but from your point of view, particularly in Wales, for year 1, also for year 2 in some detail and year 3 in more outline. So, why does this seem to you as taking an awful long time? Actually, because we couldn’t bank anything until the charter is absolutely signed and the agreement is all done. Now it is and we can move forward, and I hope that we can come before you and tell you what we’re doing—in fact, we will tell you what we’re doing—in March. So, that’s No. 1 on the English language programming issue. Can I just say, Chair, that I haven’t made any promises to anybody about spending? This is the one promise I have said I will keep, and I intend to.


[9]          The second thing is about the nations and regions director, which I know has caused a lot of you to think, ‘So, quite how is the role of Wales going to play out in this?’ I don’t need to tell you, because you live this, but for the BBC, the issue of the representation of our nations and the regions of England is one of the top three issues that the BBC faces in the new charter. So, for the new charter—which, when you read it and you know you’ve read it and you’ve had conversations about it, has public purposes. The public purpose to ensure that we are properly reflecting and representing and, in the creative economy, working with the nations and the regions is one of the key things that stand out. What I’m trying to do is make sure that, for every public purpose, I’ve got one person who is absolutely accountable to me to pull together what the BBC is doing right across the piece, and that’s what the new director of nations and regions will be doing. Some people have said, ‘But you’re going back to the past’—actually, there is much more need for this person now than I think there was in the past, because it’s so important to all of us. So, that person is about delivery right across the piece, and the job is very, very big.


[10]      Bethan Jenkins: We will be coming to those questions later.


[11]      Lord Hall: Shall I stop there?


[12]      Bethan Jenkins: Yes.


[13]      Lord Hall: I just wanted to add a bit of clarity, which I just hope—. I just wanted to be helpful to the committee.


[14]      Bethan Jenkins: You said you didn’t promise anything. So, in March, there will be funding?


[15]      Lord Hall: Yes.


[16]      Bethan Jenkins: We appreciate that you—. We were led to believe that there would be money for portrayal for the nations and regions. I don’t think it was something that we’d made up; I think that’s something we thought we had heard from you in those speeches.


[17]      Lord Hall: Yes. My first speech was about, ‘This is what we should debate’. Since then, I think I’ve been here and said, ‘I get it, and we want to put some money behind that in the new charter’. The new charter we’ve now got, and we’re going through the budget processes now, which will come out in March. So, in March, you will have an answer to ‘How much?’ and ‘For what?’ and those are discussions that are going on with Rhodri.


[18]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay, thank you. Lee Waters wants to come in.


[19]      Lee Waters: Thank you, and thanks for coming in to give evidence, both of you. That was a helpful explanation of your timeline. So, it’s not until March that we’re going to have any sense of a detailed financial plan, so that’ll be almost three years after you first said that there was a problem, that Wales wasn’t being properly served, and aspects of our national life were not being captured by the BBC. It’ll then, I guess, if the budgets aren’t going to be announced until March, it’s going to be a year, 18 months before anything hits the screens, so that’ll be four, going on five years since you first identified the problem.


[20]      Lord Hall: Well, I understand your frustration, Mr Waters, but let me say a number of things. One is: we’ve been doing a lot in the time up to now. But to specifically answer your question: no, the spending that we’ll announce in March will have money set aside for the new financial year, 2017-18, and I expect some things to be spent in 2017-18. It will then outline 2018-19 and, in some outline, the following three years, because we work, as I’m sure you know, in a three-year cycle. So, I’m as anxious as you clearly are, from the tone of what you’re saying, to deliver, and we hope to be able to deliver next year. But can I also say I think there are some things that, I hope you’d agree, we are really making progress on, and I think the issue of portrayal, which I’ve also said here and elsewhere is a really important one I think we have made some progress on.


[21]      Lee Waters: With respect, we’ll come to portrayal. There are lots of areas we want to explore, but let’s just stick to the numbers for now, because it’s the money that makes all of this stuff meaningful. With the greatest of respect, you’ve been making empathetic noises for some time now, and I’ve been very encouraged by them, and I can detail the things you’ve said and when you’ve said them, but the direction of travel is you’ve been leading us to believe that you got it and you were going to deliver, and it’s going to be five years before you deliver. In the meantime, you’re delivering cuts of £9 million, so you can understand our anxiety.


[22]      Lord Hall: I can completely understand your anxiety, I also understand your frustration, but what I’m saying to you is: we are going to deliver; I do get it.


[23]      Lee Waters: But we don’t know what you’re going to deliver.


[24]      Lord Hall: We are working that through, and you’ve got to give us time to work this through.


[25]      Lee Waters: Well, you’ve had two and a half years, with respect.


[26]      Lord Hall: No, we haven’t, with respect, Mr Waters. The charter and the agreement about the charter and the financial deal behind the charter has been settled this September, and the charter is actually being signed off right now. So, if I may just say, what we’re doing is what we normally do, as I’m sure you know. The three-year plan—this is all for the new charter. And I’ve been clear throughout this—this is for the new charter. The new charter begins in April, and we’re going to deliver, and I’ve said we’re going to deliver and we will, and we’ll deliver for next year, not just for future years.


[27]      Lee Waters: I don’t quite get that, because if you identified correctly the problem, why did it have to wait for the charter for anything to change? Your output in 2014-15: zero hours on BBC One Wales for entertainment; zero hours for education; 1.5 hours over a year on comedy; two hours on drama, which is essentially a collection of Hinterland and some short films. So, it didn’t necessarily need to wait for a new charter to be delivered, you had resource. There’s a fascinating piece by Jane Tranter in this month’s Television magazine. From her point of view, as a drama commissioner, she’s identified, reflecting on her time as BBC head of drama, that the BBC lacked an open-mindedness towards Wales. So, I hear what you’re saying about future commitments, which, frankly, are taking a long time, but even given the resource you had and given what you identified yourself as being the problem, you failed to deliver.


[28]      Lord Hall: I don’t think we are failing to—. We’re delivering a huge amount for Wales, Mr Waters, and I hope—


[29]      Lee Waters: One episode of Hinterland.


[30]      Lord Hall: —you appreciate that. I’ve been watching terrific programming from Wales to the whole of the UK on Aberfan. I’ve been watching the growth of Roath Lock, which I think has been outstanding. I’ve also seen the fact that we are delivering a drama commissioner here—we’ll be delivering that shortly. The delay for that, just so that you know, is because we didn’t have a head of drama—our director of drama was poached by ITV—but there will be a head of drama. We are making real significant progress, I think, on portrayal.


[31]      Rhodri now goes to a quarterly meeting with the director of content, Charlotte Moore, to talk about how Wales is being portrayed on the network. So, I can understand your frustration with the English-language-to-Wales part of the equation, but a huge amount has been going on in the meantime, which I also hope, in a balanced way, you would appreciate.


[32]      Lee Waters: We’ll come back to this, I’m sure. I’ll let others have their chance.


[33]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Suzy Davies.


[34]      Suzy Davies: Thank you. Obviously, there’s a background over time of cuts and savings that have to be made. Bearing in mind the commitment that Lee Waters has just been talking about, what’s going to have to give in order for additional money to come to the nations and regions?


[35]      Lord Hall: What we’re doing right across the piece—right across the whole BBC—is working through our three-year plan for how we live within the means that we’ve been set by the Government in the funding settlement. The funding settlement overall is cash-flat. What we’ve done with Wales, with Northern Ireland and with Scotland is a relatively better position than it is for other divisions in the BBC, i.e. we said, ‘You need to plan for a cash-flat settlement.’ In other areas, we have given more testing targets so that we can reinvest money in things where we think we need more funding. One of those areas is Welsh programming in the English language to Wales, but there are some other areas as well. So, that’s the overall plan that we’re doing. That work is under way and in a global sense, we’ll come out with the results of that work in March.


[36]      Suzy Davies: Okay. So, what I understand from that is that there’s going to be less of a cut, if you like, for the nations and regions, of spending, if you like. If that’s the case, though, you’ll have a figure in mind of what needs to not be cut for the nations and regions, which means that you must have a figure in mind about what money is going to be spent on the nations and regions.


[37]      Lord Hall: I have figures in mind overall for where I want Wales, for example, to get to. But I’ve also got to look at how other divisions in the BBC are saving money and ensure that they are saving money to be able to move money to where I want it to go. So, that’s the process we’re going through at the moment.


[38]      Suzy Davies: Are you able to share what’s in your mind about what needs to be spent in Wales or—?


[39]      Lord Hall: Forgive me. I’ll happily share—


[40]      Suzy Davies: In March.


[41]      Lord Hall: —in March. Forgive me, I’m not trying to be coy here or anything, I’m trying to go through a process here, which is, actually, difficult right across the piece. Some people say, ‘Lucky you—you’ve got an 11-year charter’—which is great, and thanks to everybody for supporting that—‘and you’ve got a licence fee settlement, you know, for the next five years’, but actually working that through with all the divisions to make sure we get to the right place in terms of savings we can deliver to reinvest in places we think are important—I’ve got to do that with the organisation first, I think.


[42]      Suzy Davies: Okay, thank you for that. As you have something in mind, which I appreciate you can’t share with us, you must have an idea about how you’d like to see that money divided up amongst the nations and regions. Are you thinking that it needs to be spent in a sort of quota fashion or is it a question of quality or, without wandering into other questioners’ territories, is it a question of what’s likely to be commissioned?


[43]      Lord Hall: I think there are three things for Wales and maybe as an indication—. Demands from Wales for more coverage of English language, I absolutely get; I think there are some news issues in Wales that we need to answer as well; but I think also in Wales there are issues around portrayal and building on the extraordinary achievement of Roath Lock—and, by the way, delivering a building to time; a brilliant building, I’m sure, it’s going to be—and those are the main priorities that I see for Wales. But Rhodri is constantly talking to me about those priorities and we’ll no doubt be talking even more over the next couple of weeks.


[44]      Suzy Davies: I’ll come on to Roath Lock in a second. I just wanted to try and get an answer from you, really, about what is it that Wales is arguing that can help us rise above the other nations and regions to get this money for our English language drama, because I imagine the other nations and regions are screaming in exactly the same way.




[45]      Lord Hall: Yes, but I go back—the only commitment I made to anybody that there will be extra money is to Wales, and this is on English language programming. So, yes, there is a lot of noise in a lot of places, not just nations, but other areas of the BBC too. But, just to repeat, I absolutely get, and I understand, what I want to deliver here, and one of those is English language programming in Wales. I also come from a news background and the quality and placing of news about Wales, for Wales, also matters to me. And I think there’s a broader issue too, which you might want to go on to, which is about young audiences and how we match them.


[46]      Suzy Davies: At what point then—? Thank you for reaffirming the promise on English language drama. But at what point would pressure from, let’s say, randomly, Cumbria, come into play on that promise if Cumbria hasn’t been portrayed to a sufficient level on network at some point? I don’t want to talk specifically about portrayal but funding.


[47]      Lord Hall: But that is such a good point you’re making, because, actually, that’s the issue we’re facing. And, again, I go back—I know that a lot of people are concerned about the appointment of someone to run nations and regions to do that, but I need someone who can focus on exactly that to make sure that we are actually delivering properly for Cumbria. Now, as it happens, Radio Cumbria, when I was there at the beginning of the year, is rather like the BBC in Wales; it’s actually delivering something that actually makes Cumbria an entity. Now, I think they’re doing a really, really good job, and, with the floods, in very difficult circumstances. But those are exactly the sorts of pressures I’ve got to respond to, and I think, within England, I also want to ensure that the English regions are properly dealt with, within the limits we’ve got, which you all understand very well. The settlement is not a settlement of huge riches. We’ve got to monitor and manage our money very, very carefully in the money that we’ve got. But the good thing we’ve got is some certainty about our funding.


[48]      Suzy Davies: And who will be primarily responsible for ensuring that balance? Will it be you or the new director of nations and regions?


[49]      Lord Hall: Me, because, in terms of the objectives I’ve set myself, this is something I care very deeply about. It’s something, I think, I want to ensure the BBC gets right. The other thing that you’re—. Actually, I’ll leave governance, because, obviously, the new board will have—. I’m sure you’ll want to talk about that later.


[50]      Suzy Davies: I’ve got one more question, or two—


[51]      Bethan Jenkins: We need to—. If it’s very short.


[52]      Suzy Davies: I shall make this one my last question then. The potential additional budget for English drama—we’re also going to be having a drama commissioner here in Wales. I don’t want you to talk about what the role of that commissioner is going to be, but the money that they’re going to get, their budget, is that going to be part of this additional money, or is it separate?


[53]      Lord Hall: No, no, that’s separate. And could I just also say to you, just in terms of what’s in my mind, on English language programming in Wales, Rhodri and I need to be able to discuss whether it’s drama, comedy, or something else. And I think it’s really important that Rhodri’s voice about what we need to do to serve our audiences better in Wales in English language programming is going to be very strong in that to me.


[54]      Suzy Davies: Thank you, Chair.


[55]      Bethan Jenkins: Lee has a small supplementary.


[56]      Lee Waters: Just very briefly, I’m still not clear in my mind what you meant when you said in ‘British Bold Creative’ that you wanted to protect the nations. We’re 30 per cent down on where we were 10 years ago—I understand the pressures you’re under—so what does success look like in terms of honouring your pledge to protect the nations, because you’ve already announced a £9 million cut?


[57]      Lord Hall: So, Mr Waters, let me say on protecting, this may seem an odd form of protection to you, but let me say what we’ve done. In terms of the targets we’ve set to every division in the BBC to save money, because we’ve got a cash-flat settlement, and we want to reinvest, what I’ve said to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland is, ‘You will only have to live within a cash-flat settlement. You will not have to make further savings that every other division is having to make to fund the priorities,’ one of which, if I go back, is English language programing. So, to that extent, we’re not being as hard as we need to be on other divisions in Wales or in Scotland.


[58]      Lee Waters: So, protecting the nations is cutting slightly less compared to everybody else.


[59]      Lord Hall: But, then, to go forward, which is exactly what you’re asking me to do—to go forward, what I want for Wales is two things. I want Roath Lock to be growing even faster than it is now, and building on its international reputation. I want a building that people are going to say, ‘This is absolutely the heart of a national broadcaster’ and loads of things around that. And I want our responsibilities, as the national broadcaster for Wales, to be realised, not only in terms of the news and current affairs that we do, but also in terms of the English language programming and also, by the way, in our commitment to the Welsh language and in our partnership to S4C.


[60]      Lee Waters: So, a £9 million cut falls within the definition of protecting the nations.


[61]      Lord Hall: No, because I’ve said to you, and I—. I’m sorry if I’m not getting this across. We’ve announced our cuts. The process we’re going through now is to work out what our budgets are going to be for next year, the year after, and the year after, and please grill me and cross-examine me as toughly as you want when I’ve announced those plans, and you can see them in the round.


[62]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay. We have to move on to portrayal. I don’t know if you’ve watched our Twitter account, but we have been asking people to come up with questions. We won’t be asking them like Jeremy Corbyn does, so don’t worry about that, but we have had quite a lot of—


[63]      Lord Hall: There’s nothing wrong with that. [Laughter.]


[64]      Bethan Jenkins: We didn’t want to go, ‘Mrs Jones down the road has asked why there isn’t more cookery programmes’, but, anyway, we’ve had quite a lot from people like Dafydd Cook and Michael Beynon and Councillor Lyn Ackerman all on portrayal in relation to not seeing Wales reflected back at them. And please don’t take it as a negative towards what’s happening in Roath Lock, but, when we are looking at our screens we’re not, quite often, seeing, not only in drama, but in other walks of life, as you said—in comedy, in science and in other walks of life—that on our screens. I think that’s something that we want to tease out of the drama commissioner role now, which Dai Lloyd will lead on for us here in the Assembly.


[65]      Dai Lloyd: Mi wnaf i ddechrau beth bynnag, ac wedyn gwnaiff Hannah gymryd drosodd. Dim ond i ddechrau i bwysleisio pwysigrwydd yr holl fusnes o sut mae Cymru yn cael ei gweld a’i phortreadu, achos—anghofio am faterion ariannol yn awr; rydym ni wedi cael y cwestiynau hynny, ond, ynglŷn â’r cyd-destun o sut mae Cymru yn cael ei gweld o fewn Cymru a sut mae pobl y tu allan i Gymru hefyd yn gweld Cymru—. Wedyn, rydym ni wedi cael adroddiad blynyddol y BBC yng Nghymru yn olrhain, fel rydych chi wedi ei grybwyll eisoes, bod yna rhyw fath o gynnydd yn mynd i fod yn y ffordd mae Cymru yn cael ei phortreadu, er ein bod wedi clywed y ffigurau pitw yna roedd Lee Waters yn eu hawgrymu am faint o gynnyrch am Gymru sydd wedi bod, a gobeithio y bydd hynny yn cynyddu. Byddwn i jest eisiau cael rhyw fath o gadarnhad bod yna waith ar gynnydd.


Dai Lloyd: I will start and then Hannah will take over. I just wanted to start by emphasising the importance of this whole issue of the portrayal of Wales and how Wales is depicted. So, if we set aside the financial issues—we’ve had those questions—I’m looking here at how Wales is portrayed both within Wales and outwith Wales in terms of how people from outside of Wales see Wales. We’ve had the BBC Wales’s annual report, which stated that there is going to be some sort of increase, as you’ve already mentioned, in the way that Wales is portrayed, although we have heard those dire figures that Lee Waters mentioned in terms of the output on Wales that there has been in the past, and we hope to see that increasing, of course. But I did want some sort of confirmation that there is some work afoot.

[66]      Cyn i Hannah sôn am y comisiynydd drama, fe fyddwn i yn mynd i olrhain rôl amcanion portreadu Cymru yn bositif ac yn realistig, achos rwy’n credu bod yna gyfrifoldeb ar y BBC, fel darlledwr gwasanaeth cyhoeddus, achos bod y sefyllfa efo’n papurau dyddiol ni yma yng Nghymru yn golygu bod y rhan fwyaf o bobl Cymru yn darllen papurau dyddiol sydd wedi cael eu cynhyrchu yn Llundain. Felly, nid ydyn nhw o reidrwydd yn cael newyddion am Gymru chwaith o’r ffynhonnell yna. Wedyn, rwy’n credu dyna pam rydym ni yn poeni am sut mae’r BBC yn portreadu Cymru, achos mae o, ar ddiwedd y dydd, yn un o’r prif ffynonellau sydd yna yn wyneb diffygion papurau newydd lleol, a fe fydd yna ragor o gwestiynau ar hynny—


Before Hannah turns to the drama commissioner, I would like to ask you about the portrayal objectives for Wales in terms of portraying Wales in a positive and realistic manner, because I do think there is a responsibility on the BBC as a public service broadcaster, because the situation with our daily newspapers here in Wales does mean that most people in Wales read newspapers that are published in London. So, they don’t necessarily get news about Wales from those sources either. That’s why we are concerned about how the BBC portrays Wales, because, at the end of the day, it is one of our main news sources in light of the deficiencies in newspapers, and I’m sure there will be further questions on that—


[67]      Bethan Jenkins: Os gallwn ni gadw at portreadu, ac wedyn fe allwn ni fanylu ar newyddion wedyn.


Bethan Jenkins: If we could stick to portrayal, and we’ll move to news afterwards.

[68]      Dai Lloyd: A jest i ofyn y cwestiwn ynglŷn â pa arweiniad y byddwch chi’n ei roi i gomisiynwyr teledu yn ymarferol i gynyddu’r cynnyrch am Gymru ac o Gymru, yn eich tyb chi. Diolch yn fawr.


Dai Lloyd: Can I just ask you what guidance will you give to television commissioners on a practical level to increase the output on Wales and from Wales? What’s your view on that? Thank you.  

[69]      Lord Hall: Thank you, and by the way just to say I think the overall point you’re making I completely subscribe to, which is, actually, that the BBC’s role, when you look around the UK, is bigger in Wales because of the fact that there’s a lot of English language stuff coming at Wales from London. So, I take that point.


[70]      Every network genre in television now has a portrayal objective. That’s monitored quarterly, the analysis is looked at with Rhodri and other directors from nations with Charlotte Moore, meeting to go through that analysis. It’s a quarterly meeting with the director of content, so our portrayal objectives are being looked absolutely quarterly. The report will come to me on how those things are done. We will be outlining those in the annual plan that Ofcom wants us to do for 2017-18 as part of the charter and agreement, and we will report back on what we’ve done against those objectives in the annual report, and we’ll add that to what we say in the annual report so that you’ve got data, or rather you’ve got things you can look at and say, ‘Why that?’ or ‘Why this?’ So, we’re being very concrete about it.


[71]      I think the most important thing for me are the contacts between here and London and that those contacts are working well so that the networks can respond. I think we’ve seen some good examples of that. I thought our coverage of Aberfan, done from here by Huw Edwards, was absolutely masterful. I think The Green Hollow was, again, absolutely brilliant, and, by the way, had the highest AAI—audience appreciation index—of any programme on BBC One in nearly five years. So, it just tells you that things like that can really work. I think Ordinary Lies is working well too, showing—. Well, it’s a brilliant drama, I think—really, really good. So, I think we’re making progress, but I’m also interested in the data—I’m sure you are—to show that we are making that progress.


[72]      Dai Lloyd: Okay. Hannah.


[73]      Hannah Blythyn: Thank you. Actually turning to the role of the new drama commissioners now, and the role they’ve got to ensure the weighted portrayal of Welsh life, I’m just wondering if you could start by telling us how they all work to the new head of drama and what level of autonomy they’ll actually have. So, will they be able to commission directly to the BBC network?


[74]      Lord Hall: Yes, they’ll be working—. We’ve got a new head of drama. He started about two or three weeks ago. He’s the ex-head of drama for Channel 4. I think he’s extraordinarily good. We’re very lucky to have him. It’s taken a long time for him to be let go from Channel 4. He will work with the drama commissioners for Scotland, for Northern Ireland, and Wales. We felt it very important that he should have a say in who that drama commissioner for Wales will be. That person will be based here. I think that person should be the conduit for the creative sector here in drama to feed their ideas through—to back some ideas from in-house or studios but also back the ideas from the indie sector too.


[75]      Bethan Jenkins: Will they have their own budget?


[76]      Lord Hall: Pardon?


[77]      Bethan Jenkins: Will they have their own budget here in Wales?


[78]      Lord Hall: They’ll have the whole drama budget, which they will argue into. You can do this two ways. You can say, ‘Look, you’ve got a budget and that’s what you’ve got to spend’, or I prefer the idea that is, ‘You’ve got targets for making sure that you portray Wales and we get x amount of output out of Wales, which we’re sticking to, in fact, we’re even over-delivering on, but actually you are part of the whole commissioning system around the director of drama, but you’re based here’. I think, for me, that seems good. They’re also going to be working with the Writers Room, which we’ve set up here too. That’s something else we’ve delivered on since I last saw you. So, I’ve got great hopes for this.


[79]      Mr Davies: Can I just add to that? If you look at the model that Northern Ireland have developed very successfully with their commissioning editor, which has led to productions like The Fall and Line of Duty, what’s rather brilliant about the way they’ve approached it is they’ve looked at the whole pipeline of drama, from the drama that’s on Radio Ulster to the local drama that is commissioned in Northern Ireland to the network shows. So, he has an overview of the entire slate and so can think about talents that maybe aren’t ready yet for a major network show, but can think about how you pull that talent through the system and give them opportunities. I think that’s exactly what we need in Wales, because I think—. Tony’s spoken about the success of Roath Lock. We know we’ve got a terrific economic story and a terrific creative story, but, by having a commissioning editor on the ground working with the most promising writers, I think we’ve got a far, far better chance of getting significant pieces over the line. And, to Tony’s point, there are pieces coming through: The Green Hollow is a terrific example, Hinterland series three, Ordinary Lies, a new series, The Requiem, airing next year: there are Welsh pieces coming through. It’s not the case that the cupboard’s bare. But, by having somebody focused, I think we can accelerate things.


[80]      Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy, you wanted to come in briefly.


[81]      Jeremy Miles: Can I just ask a point for clarity on the role of the new Wales-based drama commissioner? Are they going to be based here full time? Is that the intention?


[82]      Lord Hall: Yes. What struck me when I was last at Roath Lock, talking to some indies down there, was they wanted to have very close contact with someone who had a voice and could represent their voice on BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Four, BBC Three—the lot. And I think this person’s going to—. I very much hope this person will answer that need.


[83]      Jeremy Miles: And will they be working with Wales-based production companies and writers exclusively, or mainly?


[84]      Lord Hall: Mainly. Mainly. And also with the amazing strength there is here in special effects and all that sort of stuff as well. There’s a wonderful set of—


[85]      Mr Davies: Can I just say, from my perspective, it’s really important that they can work on other projects? If you want the best creative talent, having artificial boundaries to how they’re set up and what they can do I think actually can act as an obstacle to attracting the best. So, I think that’s important. I think the other thing to say is, in the context of reinvestment into English-language television, more and more, the model of drama commissioning is a partnership between the local commissioners and the network commissioners. So, if you think of The Green Hollow, A Poet in New York, Hinterland, they’re all examples of where local money and network money come together. That will more and more be the case. So, in terms of the influence BBC Wales, for example, will have on the network drama slate, if there is new money available, that will increase our ability to be able to partner with network in getting projects over the line.




[86]      Bethan Jenkins: Hannah wanted to come back.


[87]      Hannah Blythyn: Just very briefly, coming back on to the budget, will there be a specific part of that budget for drama that reflects Wales and Welsh life?


[88]      Lord Hall: Insofar as we’re talking about the budget for Wales into Wales, yes, but I also hope in terms of our portrayal and the data that we give you—the things that we give you, rather—about what we’re going to do next year, then also we can answer the question about what we are portraying of Wales, about Wales, to the network. So, I hope we can push forward to give you more to feed on, to be able to quiz us about what we’re doing.


[89]      Bethan Jenkins: That’s in the form of giving us the information that you said that you’ve done on the portrayal—the collecting of data about how different regions and nations are portrayed. Because we haven’t seen that work, so, if you could send it to us, that would be useful.


[90]      Lord Hall: I think, Chair, if we may, we want to look at that at the end of this financial year and see what we can give. We’re just aware that there’s a desire for more information. We need to find it in a way that makes sense for us and sense for you too, but, yes.


[91]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay, thanks.


[92]      Mr Davies: And just to be clear on that, in terms of our reporting, the key thing is to tell you about the programmes and the series that are being delivered. It’s not so much the data—the real test is what’s on screen. I think what we can do routinely is to actually just publish what it is that is portraying Wales on screen—rather than the altmetrics on volumes and hours, what is actually on screen.


[93]      Bethan Jenkins: Okay. We might be interested in both.


[94]      Mr Davies: You might be. [Laughter.]


[95]      Bethan Jenkins: Lee has a small, small, small one.


[96]      Lee Waters: You mentioned targets—as I understand, they’re production quotas at the minute, they’re not portrayal. Because, when Roath Lock was set up, Jana Bennet, who was then your director of vision—lovely title—said that the creation of Roath Lock would result in a reflection of Wales on the screen at network more and it hasn’t happened. You mentioned Ordinary Lies, which could be set anywhere. You mentioned The Fall—other than the fact the murderer is called the Belfast strangler and speaks with a Belfast accent, that’s not about Northern Ireland. So, how are we going to get that portrayal—rather than just the production, which is very welcome, how are we going to make sure that portrayal happens?


[97]      Lord Hall: Actually, what’s interesting about the The Fall, when you go to Northern Ireland, is they really rate it.


[98]      Lee Waters: It’s great, but it’s not about Northern Ireland.


[99]      Lord Hall: No, but it’s interesting—I kind of think when I see it, ‘Gosh, is that really how you want Northern Ireland portrayed?’ But, actually, it goes down—


[100]   Lee Waters: It’s all relative, I suppose.


[101]   Lord Hall: But it goes down very well. The serious answer to your point is we’ve set these—. So, the first thing—the volume, both in terms of hours and in terms of money, targets for Wales absolutely continue. We’re committed to that, and I think we’ve been very successful in that—in fact, we’ve even overshot the target. From now on, we’re also looking at portrayal, and we will publish what is relevant on how we’re doing against portrayal. As I think Rhodri’s saying, I think it may be better to do that in terms of the programmes that reflect Wales to the rest of the UK, and then I suspect we’ll have disputes about—or proper arguments, rather, debates about—whether Ordinary Lies is really about Wales or is about anywhere else or whatever. But I think that’s the right discussion, now, to be having in the new charter.


[102]   Bethan Jenkins: We’re going to move on to something you touched on earlier with regard to news and the Welsh news either on network or on our screens and radios here in Wales. I wanted to use my Chair’s prerogative to ask a question that I asked Rhodri Talfan Davies when he came in last time, which was with regard to the concept of BBC news journalists going out to the community to work potentially with organisations such as Media Wales. I know there’s been some contention because potentially some of that money could come from local TV. I wanted to understand where you were at with those developments and whether that had been confirmed, or, if it hasn’t been confirmed, when it will be, so that we can have some clarity. I think there’s some contention on that issue as well from various trade unions also.


[103]   Mr Davies: Can I start on that, and maybe you’ll want to come in? I think, as I said three or four weeks ago, the discussions with the press sector about what those opportunities are are not concluded. It’s not tied up with local television—in a sense, local television as a funding commitment in the new charter disappears, so it’s not a ‘one in, one out’—that’s a separate issue. There are two things that we’re exploring. One is making available our newsgathering video and audio. As soon as we’ve broadcast, can we make it available to other media partners? It’s an idea called news bank. And then the other one, which you mentioned, which was part of the British Bold Creative thinking is: is there a shared model where we can employ journalists jointly between the BBC and the newspaper sector to provide coverage of areas, towns and particularly at local government level where, inevitably, with the structural change facing the press, there’s been a reduction in coverage of—


[104]   Bethan Jenkins: So, they’re still inconclusive.


[105]   Mr Davies: That’s still—. Yes, we still haven’t—


[106]   Bethan Jenkins: When will we hear something on that? Do you know?


[107]   Lord Hall: This is for the new charter. We’re talking to the local newspapers—a breadth of local newspapers—about where to start, with whom and what, but—


[108]   Bethan Jenkins: But it’s not about whether it will happen. It will happen.


[109]   Lord Hall: It’s going to happen. We said it’s going to happen and it will happen. It was very much something that the last Secretary of State felt strongly about. It’s kind of disappeared slightly off the agenda, but, no, it’s going to happen.


[110]   Bethan Jenkins: Do you see the BBC’s role as filling that gap where big commercial companies are actually pulling back from Wales or other parts of the UK?


[111]   Lord Hall: Yes. You hit, I think, a really interesting dilemma in what you’re suggesting. I think we have to fill that gap, but on the other hand there needs to be a commitment by local press and media to also be a part of this as well. So, I don’t think we can get to the point when we are—or could be—accused of cross-subsidising newspapers or others. But I think, here, coming together with colleagues in the right places where there are, as Rhodri’s saying, real needs, I think there’s a kind of win-win situation for us all where, actually, we can all benefit by having a more vibrant local press by coverage of councils and other big issues.


[112]   Bethan Jenkins: I personally am very concerned that some of the organisations involved would remove staff when you carry forward this scheme, but we’ll be keeping a close eye on it anyway. Dawn wanted to come in.


[113]   Lord Hall: Can I say—


[114]   Bethan Jenkins: Sorry. I would be concerned about that.


[115]   Lord Hall: —what we don’t want to do is to, as it were, fill a gap so that other people can be laid off, or whatever. That’s not what we’re—


[116]   Bethan Jenkins: But you don’t know that that would happen because you could start with this process and then they could say, ‘Well, actually, this is working quite well, and we will take our staff away from this provision now’.


[117]   Lord Hall: I think you’re on to—. This is very important. We’ve got to be really careful we’re not used to cross-subsidise in that sort of sense, so other things that are going on at the moment are withdrawn by the commercial press. So, we’ve got to handle it really carefully and really sensitively.


[118]   Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, Dawn. I know I took a bit of time there.


[119]   Dawn Bowden: That’s okay. Thank you, and thank you very much for coming along today. Can I just say, because I think it would be remiss of me not to say, as the Member whose constituency covers Aberfan, I thought the programming that you did around Aberfan was absolutely superb? It was sympathetic; it struck the right tone. I personally know some of the people who were portrayed in The Green Hollow, who were also very pleased with the way that they were personally portrayed in that programme. The documentary programming around Aberfan was also very sensitive and very good. I’ve said the same to Huw over at ITV. So, thank you very much for that.


[120]   Lord Hall: Thank you, and I’ll pass that on too, as Rhodri will.


[121]   Dawn Bowden: Thank you. Can I just deal with the news and current affairs? In the broadest sense, really, the nations news review did identify that all of our news outlets—whether it was Radio Cymru, whether it was BBC Wales, whether it was BBC Cymru and so on—the news and current affairs outputs had declined. There’s also been concern—and it’s been expressed in this committee previously—about the way in which news is delivered both in Wales and outside of Wales about Wales, and the kind of deficit that we have. One of the things I think that one of your earlier reports, and certainly Ofcom, reported on was that people, even within Wales, leave alone what the rest of the UK thinks, struggle to understand much about what happens in this place, for instance. So, it’s really a little bit more about your plans to try to address that. I think there’s been much talk about whether there should be something at the top and tail of the UK national news, or however, but perhaps you can say a little bit more about that.


[122]   Lord Hall: Yes. We’re working through the news review at the moment. The issues across the nations and the regions differ enormously, as you would imagine. I think the key issues that Rhodri and I have been talking about here, one of them is about radio and about whether there was another way of delivering a Wales element of news summaries on radio that could work well. Accepting your point—which is at the core of it—which is actually that people don’t know enough about what goes on here and, you know, that’s kind of our responsibility, so that’s one of the things we’re looking at. We’re also looking, more broadly, at our newsgathering capability right across Wales. So, I think those are the two priorities. In Scotland it’s something very different. In Northern Ireland, it’s something different again, and from the regions of England it’s, again, different.


[123]   Dawn Bowden: So, just following on from that then—and I think this covers, partly, the point that Bethan was making—how do your plans for reporting on local democracy and local government, for instance—one of the things you were talking about there was employing the 150 journalists, and so on—fit into the general news programming?


[124]   Lord Hall: Well, the idea behind that is that, right across the piece, by which I mean across the whole of the UK—and, again, I’m aware it varies according to both different nations, but also parts of nations and also parts of England—what we want to do is to boost working with colleagues in local media, to boost the quality of the reporting that we give to public institutions, to courts, to local journalism, and to come together with the local press, insofar as we can, and do more data journalism, which I think is really important. So, in every way, kind of take—. I mean, people get very cross with me when I talk about a democratic deficit, but I think we want to ensure that we, working with colleagues in the press, can actually do an even better job of reporting on these issues that really matter to people.


[125]   Dawn Bowden: But is it also about reach? It’s not just—. Because some of the things that we see reported on, say, the BBC news in the evening—the local news in the evening—does actually report what’s going on here. We do hear about that, but it seems that it doesn’t actually reach. So, it’s either people are not tuning into it, or it’s not being reported in a way that people find interesting enough to tune into.


[126]   Mr Davies: Can I just deal with the consumption question, because I think that’s quite important in terms of reach? The truth is—you’ll know this as well as I—the way that news is being consumed is changing. I’ll give you a very simple example of that. If you look at our online Welsh language service, Cymru Fyw, until about three years ago that had about 10,000 users a week. That has, over the three years, risen to about 60,000 Welsh-language users each week. That is a very dramatic change. Obviously, hand-in-hand with that, we see a structural change with Radio Cymru: so, the linear broadcast service facing audience pressure, and very significant growth in online. The online news service for Wales that BBC Wales produces as part of the overall news offer, that’s about 1.8 million users a week. Wales Today is still 1.5 million viewers a week. These are still mass—this is mass-viewing and mass-consumption. The challenge, you’re absolutely spot-on, is there’s still—it depends how you count it—between 30 and 50 per cent of people in Wales who aren’t engaging with news regularly from week to week.


[127]   That is why—Tony’s point about very different issues in the three nations—a lot of the ideas that we’re developing are about trying to particularly target this reach issue. You’ll know we’ve had a discussion, for example, around Newsnight, and different people’s views on the role of a Newsnight Cymru. My pushback on that—my personal view on this—is that the real underlying issue of reach is not going to be tackled by that type of output. It’s going to be tackled by strengthening and deepening our digital coverage. It’s going to be tackled by looking at some of the radio solutions that we’re developing at the moment, and it’s going to be tackled by strengthening the journalism and the specialist reporting of our main television news bulletins.


[128]   Lord Hall: Can I just add to that? I think that that point about these things, and how news consumption is being affected by the use of tablets and mobiles is really, really important. The network news are developing, in conjunction with the whole of the BBC, what we’re calling ‘news stream’, but what it’s actually saying is that you get the news that is both the things we think you ought to know about—the Syria and all of that—but also on here you get the news that is relevant to you in your area. Online, I hope we will have, we’ll be able to, if you sign into the BBC, register the fact you’re in Wales, and you’ll actually begin to get news that is relevant to you in Wales. I think if we can build still further on the data work we’re doing on a project called myBBC, which is—. What we’d hope is, over the next year or so, you’ll add more data about where you are, who you are, what you’re interested in, and we can again begin to tackle this issue of, ‘Well, I may not want to know x, but I would like to know more about Wales here’, or arts in Wales, or whatever it happens to be. So, I think tackling that issue is going to be a lot through these things. I’ve been really impressed, actually, by what Wales or Welsh language online is doing. Also, I think the pop-up channel for Radio Cymru is really interesting. I think finding new, interesting ways to reach out is really important. I think this is a big issue.




[129]   Bethan Jenkins: Did you have a supplementary, Neil?


[130]   Neil Hamilton: Well, there’s one area that I think we ought to cover. We’ve all referred to the deficit and other sources of news within Wales, and the BBC is overwhelmingly dominant, actually, in the production of decent coverage, and I just wondered how far the budget allocation for BBC Cymru Wales ensures that audiences are kept informed of what’s going on in Wales. Within the overall cuts that the BBC inevitably has to impose, how have you gone about arriving at the decision of the appropriate level of funding for news and current affairs in Wales?


[131]   Mr Davies: I’ll just begin this. I think, if you look at the last five years, when we were going through a different savings initiative—DQF, as it’s known internally—one of the things we’ve deliberately done in Wales is to protect news spend. So, when Lee talks about some of the deficits in other areas, like in entertainment and comedy, that is a result of a trade-off that we made within our budgets about making sure that we safeguarded the news service. So, actually, our news budgets over the last five years have increased slightly, whereas in other areas we’ve obviously had to cut in order to live within our means.


[132]   So, the challenge has not been the overall quantum of cash, although it’s not easy. The real editorial dilemma is how you maintain your key broadcast live services at the same time as you invest and extend your digital output. I sometimes see these old videos of the news room in the 1980s, and there’s a wonderful simplicity that everyone is essentially working to the 6.30 evening programme; the whole operation is built around the delivery of one programme. Trying to get that balance right—particularly when we think about the youth challenge and the young audiences challenge, when we think about the reach challenge we face in Wales—getting the balance right between your specialist—. You know, having the quality of something like Sunday Supplement on Radio Wales on a Sunday at the same time as making sure that the refresh rate of stories and the depth of journalism provided at the weekends online is improved, is a constant trade-off. That’s the real challenge—that the audience, frankly, wants their news delivered in so many different ways simultaneously now, but the budgets stay relatively static.


[133]   Bethan Jenkins: Can I ask a question, given that we have the director general of the BBC here? On breakfast television, it does intrigue me somewhat why there’s always a business correspondent on every day—and I’ve had this from Twitter and Facebook and others I’ve spoken to—when there’s no other correspondent on, perhaps, industrial relations, or on other elements of importance to the UK. I watch it quite regularly in the mornings, and not only do I not see Welsh people—either politicians down the screen to the reporters, or people on the sofa from Wales—but then you have that discussion that is mostly on business each morning, and not on other themes. I wondered who made that decision. There is that lack of an outlook, perhaps, on other aspects of news.


[134]   Lord Hall: It’s a really interesting point. I think our business coverage really matters—


[135]   Bethan Jenkins: Oh, I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, but it’s quite focused on business quite regularly.


[136]   Lord Hall: I think that’s important, but the broader point you make I will talk to the Breakfast team about, which is, I think, two things. One is: are there other areas of specialism we should be running with? One of the great things about the BBC is you have this extraordinary range of specialism. I start the day rather differently; I listen to Radio 4 and Farming Today and I was delighted yesterday morning to hear about scallop trawling going on off the Welsh coast. Not so great for the scallops, I don’t think, from the piece, but nonetheless that sort of sense of really using the newsgathering power of the organisation right around the organisation. So, that’s a good point that I’ll raise with them and I’ll drop you a note about it, because I think it’s a well-made point.


[137]   Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. We’re going to move on to governance and Jeremy’s going to be asking some questions on governance in particular. But I just wanted to ask, briefly, quickly, about the new role of the director of nations and regions. You say you needed that as a new role, not as a sort of recycled role from the past, that this would give renewed focus, but I know, from our engagement, that the Institute of Welsh Affairs were concerned that perhaps this was going to focus more on Scotland than other nations. How are you going to ensure balance in the mix and how are you going to ensure that the director of BBC Wales, then, is effectively—well, has a voice as strong as he deserves in this new structure? Then, I’ll pass to Jeremy.


[138]   Lord Hall: Well, Rhodri has a very strong voice, as I’m sure you know. [Laughter.] I’ve set up a UK forum, which is—. I go back to what I was saying, Chair. This, to me, is one of the top three to four issues the BBC faces, which is not just Wales, but our commitment—and it’s there as a public purpose—to ensuring we portray properly the nations and regions of the UK. That sounds like duty; it’s not. I think that’s actually very exciting. I think, creatively, it’s very interesting and, in terms of the challenge for us, I think it’s a really great thing to be working at.


[139]   I want one person focusing on each of the public purposes, and that’s why I’ve appointed this person, because although, quite clearly, that person’s going to have to work closely with Rhodri, and there are also issues around England and English regions and how they’re represented around the BBC—


[140]   Bethan Jenkins: But if it’s just one person there, they might not be able to represent all of those different voices at the same time.


[141]   Lord Hall: So, what I’ve also set up is a UK forum, which I chair, which brings together the directors of the nations, it brings together this one person who’s my person I push to make sure that we’re making real progress in these areas, and, equally, there are two or three of the lead people in each of the regions of England, so we can have a proper—. What I want is a proper, co-ordinated discussion, a clear strategy, for what the BBC is doing outside the M25, not just on news, but on portrayal and all these other things. Now, at this forum is also Charlotte Moore, the head of content, and is also the new director of radio, so this is a forum where the BBC, chaired by me, led by me, will actually ensure that we’re delivering right across the piece. I think I’ve found it—. I think this is so important as the objectives that, in my time as director general, I want to achieve. And that’s why I’m putting this focus on it.


[142]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Jeremy.


[143]   Jeremy Miles: Can you help us with this question of the service licence that you’ve spoken about? Is that intended to capture the work of BBC Wales and BBC Cymru, or is it intended to capture the entirety of the BBC’s output in Wales?


[144]   Lord Hall: The service licence, which I hope—. Can I just put two caveats on what I’ve been saying about this? One is: we don’t know how Ofcom, yet, will regulate us—that’s a big issue. And, of course, a new chair is going to be appointed and they may have ideas. But what I will be arguing for—I continue to argue for—is that a service licence agreement, or a service agreement, or whatever we want to call it—. There must be clarity from the main board of the BBC to Wales. Within that, money can be moved around, ideas can be changed to respond in the way that Rhodri was talking about to new needs and new demands, and that should be decided in Wales.


[145]   What I’ve also proposed, but, again, it depends on the new chair, is that the non-executive director who is appointed in conjunction with the Senedd, that person and maybe one other non-executive director, plus Rhodri, plus—my own view is, but this is only my own view—maybe a couple of people from outside the BBC, but representing Wales, should then hold to account the director of Wales for delivery of the objectives we set out in the service licence agreement.


[146]   Jeremy Miles: Thank you for that, but I’m trying to get to what will be encompassed within the service licence, because, obviously, the current mechanism is, essentially, a channel-based set of service licences; it has a number of characteristics, including targets of various sorts. So, the discussion we’ve had about where we want to move towards in relation to portrayal, for example, I’m trying to get an understanding of how a Wales-focused service licence would, in your mind, relate to what are currently channel-based service licences and where the accountability will lie for delivering the Wales piece of that.


[147]   Lord Hall: I understand. So, Wales for Wales is with Rhodri, and then what we deliver on the network must be with Charlotte Moore, or with the director of radio and, eventually, with me. And that’s why I think I was saying to you earlier on about both continuing to have the volume data about how we show what we’re delivering for Wales but also the portrayal information for you to see and for us to be able to judge whether we’re delivering against what we should be delivering.


[148]   Jeremy Miles: So, the licence is a BBC Wales, BBC Cymru, licence, effectively.


[149]   Lord Hall: Yes, and then there’ll be similar licences for—. Well, a lot depends on how Ofcom work this, but—


[150]   Jeremy Miles: Absolutely, but in terms of your vision.


[151]   Lord Hall: My vision is we then hold content, or BBC One, BBC Two, BBC Three and BBC Four together, responsible for delivering against the broader objectives.


[152]   Jeremy Miles: So, the portrayal objectives, for example, would sit where within that licensing structure? On the main networks?


[153]   Lord Hall: On the main networks, because actually the networks, in the end, on radio, television and online are the people who are going to have to deliver against those, and they know it. I think the innovation, which may sound slightly dull, but is not, is the fact that this is now being reviewed quarterly and on the basis of data with the head of content, Charlotte Moore, and with the directors of the nations.


[154]   Jeremy Miles: So the accountability for delivering those objectives is pretty diffuse in a sense, isn’t it, because it’s covering a number of different BBC operations in Wales. So, there’s a whole range of—. If there’s a failure to meet those objectives, who is on the hook, I guess?


[155]   Lord Hall: Well, that’s a blunt question, so I’ll give you—. The straight answer is: if it’s in Wales, for Wales, the man on my left and eventually me; if it’s on BBC One through BBC Four, it’s Charlotte Moore and, eventually, me. It’s kind of that all roads, in the end, lead to me, I think, on all of these things.


[156]   Jeremy Miles: And what would be the relationship of the nations and regions director and the sub-committee that we’ve talked about in the past? How will they relate to the service licence arrangements in Wales?


[157]   Lord Hall: This is, again, me making sure that the overall strategy we have for delivering in Wales, the north-east of England—that we’ve got an overall strategy agreed. That then infuses and informs the service level agreements we have with content, BBC TV, and also with Wales. But, just to be clear, I want absolute clarity for Wales and also for our TV channels about what they’ve got to deliver.


[158]   Jeremy Miles: So, the operational structure of the director of the nations and regions and the sub-committee won’t really play into the obligations in the licence itself.


[159]   Lord Hall: They’re there strategically to advise the main board, to me, to co-ordinate, to pull together what we’re doing right across the nations and regions. But, from the point of view of accountability, who’s actually responsible for delivering these things, I think the clarity is to the director here and also to the director of content in London.


[160]   Jeremy Miles: Okay, and have there been discussions yet with Ofcom? I know it’s early days, but have there been discussions yet about the shape of these licences?


[161]   Lord Hall: There are conversations going on, but I don’t know what Ofcom’s mind is on this yet, I’m afraid.


[162]   Jeremy Miles: Ofcom has an obligation to ensure that audiences in Wales are well-served by the BBC services. How do you envisage that operating in practice? How would you see that regulatory accountability for Ofcom and the BBC happening?


[163]   Lord Hall: Well, I can’t speak for Ofcom, but what I can say for the BBC is it’s why I will be suggesting to the new chairman that this notion of a board sub-committee for Wales—and Scotland and Northern Ireland, but for Wales—and extending that to include two, maybe more, I don’t know, other members to be able to hold us to account—I hate the phrase ‘hold to account’—to ensure that we are delivering what we’re saying we’re delivering in Wales, to Wales, I think that, to my mind, is a good way to operate. We then have an open question, which may be behind what you’re asking, which is that we used to have audience councils; we don’t in the new regime. We need to work through how best we can tap into the resource that is our audiences to ensure that we’re doing things properly. In the very long term, I think the data collection we do around people who are using us online or on iPlayer could be a resource we could use there. I was really impressed by the way the audience councils responded to the referendum by helping us week by week, saying, ‘Are we doing the right things? Are we doing the right stories? Are we covering things, have we got the right perspective on things?’ There’s an area there we’re having to look at and work through how we can keep that continuity going with our audiences in a way that’s meaningful to them—that they feel listened to.




[164]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.


[165]   Bethan Jenkins: Can I just clarify? You said earlier that there was a news review. Is that going to be looking at issues like the opt-out for news for Radio 2?


[166]   Lord Hall: Yes.


[167]   Bethan Jenkins: And would that also include looking at potential new programmes for Wales in relation to news? I know there’s been, as I said in an article this week, a campaign for a Welsh Newsnight. Would it just be to do with what exists already, or would you be looking to create new programmes for Welsh news?


[168]   Lord Hall: It’s broadly looking at what can we, in the light of the financial settlement we’ve got, afford to do and what should we do.


[169]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. You said right at the beginning that you were making these announcements in March next year. I was wondering whether you would be willing to come back in March to tell us exactly what was happening in relation to funding and governance, so that we could understand fully then what was happening.


[170]   Lord Hall: Yes. At some point around the March-April period, I’d be very happy to come back, yes.


[171]   Bethan Jenkins: Fab. Are there are any other additional questions that people have before we close?


[172]   Lee Waters: Can I just touch very briefly on journalism? Because I know you wanted to talk about how we reach young people, which I think we touched on a little bit, but I think we need to explore that further. But I don’t think we discussed enough the quality of journalism. It’s a subjective measure. I think there are issues with BBC Wales journalism, which we haven’t got time to go into today, but, just on the test of network journalism, there were stories of doctors in Welsh hospitals at the time of the junior doctors strike in England thinking that hospitals in Wales were also on strike, because of the way that it was covered at a network level. I just wonder if you have any reflections on that.


[173]   Lord Hall: I do. Again, I keep this firmly in the ‘work in progress’ file. We’ve done quite a bit of work, actually, over the last year on exactly how we portray and how we make sure that we are clear, when it’s junior doctors in England, it doesn’t apply to Wales, and whether linguistically we need to be much harder on that particular issue about the fact that it doesn’t. If I’m being honest, there’s been a sense of saying, well, ‘junior doctors in England’, therefore you’re supposed to read into that, ‘therefore not Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland’. And I know we’ve been having some discussions about whether that’s right, or whether we need to say, ‘This doesn’t apply’. Do you see what I mean? So, I think you’re on to some subtleties here that are a matter of, I think, continuous review and debate.


[174]   I think I’m right in saying, but Rhodri will tell me if I’m wrong, that, actually, the relationships between the news operation here and the news operation in London are getting closer and better and better. I think that’s working well, but, as I say, this is an area of, I think, just constantly having to refine and to work at. We’ve got to get these things as right as we can, because, actually, others may not bother with these things.


[175]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.


[176]   Bethan Jenkins: Thanks very much for coming in to give evidence, and also thank you to the public who did help inform the shape of the questions that we asked you today. It was pleasing to see that they did engage with us on that, because it’s obviously of interest to them to see that they’re getting value for money from their licence fee, and that they see that the new charter will reflect their lives here in Wales. But we look forward to seeing you next year, when you can give us some more information as to the exact amount of money that will be coming our way in terms of portrayal. I hope you have a pleasurable rest of your day here in Wales. Diolch yn fawr.


[177]   Lord Hall: Thank you very much.


[178]   Bethan Jenkins: We’ll go into private session for five minutes.


Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 10:03 a 10:22.
The meeting adjourned between 10:03 and 10:22.


Craffu ar y Gyllideb gydag Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet dros yr Economi a Seilwaith

Budget Scrutiny with the Cabinet Secretary for Economy and Infrastructure


[179]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n gyhoeddus nawr. Diolch yn fawr i Ken Skates, y Gweinidog—wel, dim y Gweinidog, ond Ysgrifennydd y Cabinet. Sori, brain freeze. Diolch am ddod ger ein bron ni heddiw ar gyfer sgrwtini o’r gyllideb. Yn gyffredinol, rydym ni wedi gweld bod nifer o ddatblygiadau yn y maes yma a bod y gyllideb wedi tyfu yn y maes yma, felly mae hynny’n rhywbeth cadarnhaol. Mae yna nifer o gwestiynau ac amryw o sectorau o fewn eich cyllideb rydym ni am eu sgrwtineiddio heddiw ac mae Dawn Bowden yn mynd i gychwyn y trafodaethau.


Bethan Jenkins: We’re in public session now. Thank you very much to Ken Skates, the Minister—well, not the Minister, but the Cabinet Secretary. Sorry, I had a brain freeze there. Thank you for coming and appearing before us today for scrutiny on the budget. Generally, we’ve seen that there have been a number of developments in this area and that the budget has grown in this area, so that is something positive. We have a number of questions on a number of the sectors within your budget that we want to scrutinise today and Dawn Bowden is going to start the discussions.


[180]   Dawn Bowden: Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Cabinet Secretary, for coming along; it’s nice to see you again. Ken, the Government’s recently published programme, ‘Taking Wales Forward’, doesn’t actually contain a lot of explicit information about the Government’s priorities around culture and heritage. So, are you going to be publishing further details around your priorities and how you’ve come to the conclusions that you have and how you’ve allocated how much to each particular area?


[181]   Ken Skates: Yes, we will. I’m delighted that we’re able to increase the budget in this area and in particular the increase in capital for the national museum and the national library. That is very significant indeed. Further work will be carried out now as part of the consultation that we have with the sponsored bodies in terms of the priorities outlined in ‘Taking Wales Forward’ and with regard to some of the specific manifesto commitments, including, for example, the challenge fund and the way that the culture sector could be incorporated into work concerning the well-being bond and so forth. But the overarching priorities that I’ve set out were relayed to you during my appearance in September, when I stated that I wished the culture sector to become more resilient and sustainable.


[182]   I want to remove barriers to participation and I want to change the way that many parts of the culture sector at the moment rely, in terms of participation and attendance, on higher socioeconomic groups. I want to do more and I want to work with the sector more to remove psychological and physical barriers that prevent people from participating. I also wish to see more young people and people from protected groups participating in cultural activities.


[183]   Dawn Bowden: So, would that be part of your assessment, or has that decision been influenced by any assessment or evaluation of the Fusion programme, then? Is that what’s been behind some of your thinking?


[184]   Ken Skates: Fusion has been, at relatively little cost, a programme that achieves what we should all strive for, which is a greater degree of collaboration. We should all strive for that, because, under legislation, contained within the well-being of future generations Act, there is a way of working that stresses the importance of greater collaboration. What Fusion has shown us is that those institutions and, if you like, organs of cultural activity, by bonding more closely together with the communities that they serve, result in more people attending and participating in cultural activities and attending cultural venues. It also results in more people gaining qualifications and experience, particularly through volunteering.


[185]   That area of the Fusion programme—volunteering to get the employability skills to then go on to secure employment—has been very successful indeed. The Fusion programme is a very low-cost way of bringing together the service providers with the people that they serve, at the moment in some of the most deprived communities. The principles of Fusion can apply anywhere in Wales, to any community. I would wish to see this mainstreamed. It does not need, necessarily, direct Government intervention for cultural institutions to reach out more to the communities that they serve, and particularly to those groups that have traditionally not participated in or accessed their services. Within the remit letters—. Between now and the new financial year, we’ll be working on the remit letters and consulting with sponsored bodies. Importantly, I want to consult with more than the sponsored bodies that receive our money. I’ll be consulting with those organisations and community groups that wish to participate more in cultural activities and, by the time the remit letter is published, I will be laying out very strong and clear targets and requirements for engaging with communities and with groups that have traditionally not been part of, if you like, cultural activity.


[186]   Dawn Bowden: Okay, thank you.


[187]   Bethan Jenkins: Hannah has a question directly on Fusion, so if she could come in here now as well.


[188]   Hannah Blythyn: Just briefly, to expand on the Fusion project, because of the increase in the amount that’s been allocated in the budget, and the £40,000 to monitor its effectiveness, I’m just wondering how that will be done both in terms of actually quantifying successful outcomes and, obviously, in an age when we have restricted budgets, how it gets value for money at the same time.


[189]   Ken Skates: We’ve commissioned a detailed Government social research evaluation, which was published in March of this year. It found that the Fusion programme had been successful in a number of areas, including in the way that bodies work in collaboration. It found that bodies become more innovative as well and more dynamic in the way that they operate by virtue of forging closer ties with communities and with community leaders. The reason that we’ve increased the budget for Fusion—again, I should say that it’s a relatively small increase for a relatively small-cost programme; it’s now been increased to £280,000—the reason that we’ve done that is to expand out the pioneer areas. Already we’re seeing strong bonds develop and, by the end of the financial year, I would expect those areas that are benefitting from the Fusion programme to have the bonds between community leaders and activists and the institutions that are participating already forged so that they can then continue after the current Communities First programme has ceased.


[190]   Bethan Jenkins: Dawn, do you want to come back on one thing?


[191]   Dawn Bowden: I’m just wondering whether the impact of the local government funding settlement had influenced in any way the decisions around your budgeting allocation this year.


[192]   Ken Skates: Local government budgets—the settlement this year is the best, I think, since 2013-14, but I recognise that, even with a relatively good settlement, the culture sector at a local level is under tremendous pressure. How do we know that? Well, based on expert review panels that were commissioned by myself, based on constant monitoring of the performance of museums, both in terms of qualitative and quantitative measure, and in the same essence, how many libraries are operating, how many people are passing through the doors of libraries and how many libraries are at risk of closure. So, we are constantly monitoring the performance of institutions and facilities that provide opportunities for people in the culture sector, and in regard to local authority settlements, yes, they have been a major consideration. Many of the organisations that receive funding that comes from my portfolio, albeit sometimes via another organisation such as the arts council, also rely on funding from local authorities. The majority of revenue-funded organisations through the arts council also rely on funding at a local authority level. If the local authority therefore cuts or stops funding for those organisations, the arts council is duty bound then to evaluate whether it can support organisations. Thus far, even during austerity, we’ve managed to avoid the sorts of closures that we’ve sadly seen elsewhere in western Europe, but we are constantly managing a situation of great pressure, and we are doing whatever we can, with our limited resources, to maintain those facilities and those services, but at the same time, putting more pressure on those who run them to reach out beyond the traditional audience, and beyond the traditional set of participants.




[193]   Dawn Bowden: Thank you. Thank you, Chair.


[194]   Bethan Jenkins: Mae Jeremy eisiau gofyn cwestiynau yn benodol ynglŷn â’r sector celfyddydau hefyd.


Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy has some specific questions on the arts sector.

[195]   Jeremy Miles: Just to develop some of the points that you made in your reply there, the arts council budget is being increased—


[196]   Ken Skates: Yes.


[197]   Jeremy Miles: Are you expecting any specific additional outputs from the arts council to reflect that?


[198]   Ken Skates: Again, yes. I’m going to reflect on the manifesto, and, therefore, the programme for government, and the need to increase the number of people, again, from groups and communities that have not traditionally been associated with or accessed cultural activities. I wish to see an increase. Also, there is provision within the budget for a feasibility study of a gallery within Wales, an arts gallery within Wales. The additional resources will assist in offsetting some of the financial pressures that arts organisations are under due to a downturn in the amount of lottery resource that’s available. I think it’s essential that we keep monitoring the amount of money that’s available through the lottery because so many organisations rely on it.


[199]   The additional revenue will also help alleviate some of the pressure that the arts council itself is under in terms of operational costs. I need to pay tribute to the arts council for the efforts they’ve gone to in reducing operating costs over the years. If you look at the percentage of the overall costs attributed to operations at the arts council, it’s come down to a very low level. They’ve been extremely lean, but I recognise that they are carrying out an organisational review at the moment, so I’m pleased that we’ve been able to increase resource for the arts council because of the pressure that they themselves are under.


[200]   We would also be able to, I expect, with this additional resource, look at some of the specific manifesto pledges that have been made, principally the challenge fund for community sport and community arts, which again is designed to assist local organisations that are under huge pressure, in part because of budget reductions in local government—to assist those organisations to lever in new forms of funding, but, at the same time, use digital technology to bridge the digital divide.


[201]   Jeremy Miles: You’ve mentioned the alternative sources of funding and you’ve indicated that you would like the arts council to accelerate the current level of activity around self-generated income, if you like. Will you give your assessment of the current state of play, and what, if anything, the Government is able to do to support them in doing that in future?


[202]   Ken Skates: Well, the arts council provides very good advice and support to organisations looking at levering in additional resource from a whole range of sources, including from philanthropists, from the lottery, through fundraising opportunities, through crowd funding, and there are a number of programmes that operate for arts organisations. The arts council is also very keen to see the major RFOs work more closely with some of the smaller production companies and smaller cultural organisations, to support them in increasing the amount of income that they generate. I think the arts council have set an ambitious target in terms of increasing income generation for the organisations that they support. They’re looking at seeing the value of private sector income to the arts in Wales increase by 20 per cent in a very short space of time, between 2015 and 2018. That’s a considerable increase. This year alone they expect earned income to increase by 5 per cent for those organisations that they support, or that we support. It’s the view of many now that the proportion of income should be about a third of the overall operating costs of a cultural organisation—


[203]   Jeremy Miles: Self-generated income?


[204]   Ken Skates: Self-generated income—with another third coming from Government through the arts council, and a further third coming from fundraising, charitable donations and so forth. So, it’s very important that the arts council maintains a focus on identifying all available sources of income through donations for fundraising, but also pushes those organisations that it supports to generate more income themselves. Crucially, more income will be generated if you get more people through the doors—if you get more participants—and that’s why, again, the focus of our programme for government has been on increasing participation levels and getting new people to participate as well. So, you don’t just have people returning on a regular basis; you have more new people returning on a more regular basis as well.


[205]   Jeremy Miles: Is it implicit in what you’re saying about the targets that they’ve set for themselves that you feel that they are possibly not achievable?


[206]   Ken Skates: I think they are achievable, because in looking at the income generation targets I think it’s important also to look at the activity targets and the activity performance as well. In this regard I think the arts sector has been incredibly successful. We’ve seen increases in the number of adults that participate—not just adults that attend, but adults that participate. We’ve also seen a significant increase in the number of children that participate. When you look at the number of people who access arts and cultural venues, again we’ve seen a significant increase. So, as a consequence, you would expect income to rise as well. So, whilst the targets are ambitious I think they are achievable. I think if we need to look at one example of how earned income can rise fast through driving up participation and increasing customers, we could look at Cadw. Their increase in income generation—


[207]   Bethan Jenkins: We’re going to come on to Cadw; if we could just park that for a minute, if that’s okay with you.


[208]   Ken Skates: Okay. Sure. Yes.


[209]   Bethan Jenkins: Lee’s got a small supplementary on cultural—


[210]   Ken Skates: Sorry. Yes.


[211]   Lee Waters: There are two, if I’ve got time.


[212]   Bethan Jenkins: We haven’t got much time at the moment.


[213]   Lee Waters: Okay. On the suitability of that model you mentioned—the third, third, third—that’s hard to apply in Wales where there isn’t that philanthropic funding. The charitable foundations aren’t focused on Wales. So, I wonder what you’re doing both to help the organisations and to challenge the UK arts bodies that do award grants to try and change that position. Because assuming that that model will apply in Wales, I think, is problematic.


[214]   Ken Skates: I think you’re absolutely right, and that model has been proposed. It’s actually Arts Council England that’s suggested that that’s the sort of model that should be adopted. We’ve already held a summit here this year, which attracted all the major charitable organisations, but—


[215]   Lee Waters: Well, they’ll come to look, but it doesn’t mean they’re going to change the way that they behave.


[216]   Kenneth Skates: Absolutely. The key is in them being challenged by us and by national organisations, such as the arts council, to show us the money, essentially. What I hear regularly is that they want to invest in Wales. They want to invest but they’re not getting the applications. The support is there if the application is to be made. The support is there from the arts council and from other third sector organisations, such as the Wales Council for Voluntary Action. Applications should be made because we are constantly hearing that those organisations—those that are largely based out of London—wish to spend more here, but at the moment there is a huge concentration within London. This is a problem that doesn’t just affect Wales; it affects many of the regions in England as well. So, I do recognise that the third, third, third approach is not yet suitable to Wales.


[217]   That’s, in part, why we designed, as a manifesto pledge, the challenge fund, which would be a new and innovative way of levering in additional income or additional resource, using digital technology so that you then have an audience that is global, but making sure that the focus is very much on community, where people are very passionate about the facilities that essentially define where they live.


[218]   Bethan Jenkins: Sorry, we’ve got lots of other questions.


[219]   Lee Waters: Okay.


[220]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at amgueddfeydd, archifau a llyfrgelloedd, ac mae Dai Lloyd a Suzy Davies yn mynd i ofyn cwestiynau ar hynny.


We’ll now move on to museums, archives and libraries where Dai Lloyd and Suzy Davies will concentrate.

[221]   Dai Lloyd: Diolch. O dan amgueddfeydd, archifau a llyfrgelloedd, rydym yn nodi wrth basio y cynnydd o £7.7 miliwn yng nghyllideb gyfalaf Llyfrgell Genedlaethol Cymru a hefyd y cynnydd net o £3.24 miliwn i’r gyllideb amgueddfeydd, archifau a llyfrgelloedd. Wrth gwrs, pan oedd cyfarwyddwr yr amgueddfa genedlaethol yma yn ddiweddar, roedd o hefyd yn dweud, mewn termau real, ers 2010, fod y gyllideb yma wedi lleihau o 33 y cant. So, o gofio’r cefndir yna i gyd, a allaf i ofyn am ragor o fanylion ar y defnydd yr ydych chi’n disgwyl i gael ei wneud o’r arian ychwanegol yma i’r amgueddfa genedlaethol a’r llyfrgell genedlaethol?


Dai Lloyd: Thank you very much. Under museums, archives and libraries, we note in passing the increase of £7.7 million in the capital budget for the National Library of Wales and also the net increase of £3.24 million in the budget of museums, archives and libraries. Of course, when the director of the national museum was here recently he said that in real terms since 2010 their budget has reduced by 33 per cent. Now, given all of that background, can I just ask for further details on the use that you expect to be made of these additional funds for the national museum and the national library?

[222]   Ken Skates: Thank you, and many thanks for your question, because I am absolutely delighted that we’ve been able to increase in cash terms the budget this coming year to the national museum by something in the region of 33 per cent. It shows this Government’s absolute commitment to the national museum, and likewise the National Library of Wales will receive a very significant increase in capital as well. So, it demonstrates our commitment to that institution in Aberystwyth.


[223]   I think what’s critically important is that we invest in the long-term sustainability of our national institutions, and the capital budget that we are providing will bring forward—and I wish to see accelerated—the maintenance work, often deferred maintenance work, on some of the most iconic buildings that we have in Wales. So, in terms of the national museum, it’s actually more than you stated: £3.7 million that will be spent on the national museum, with the bulk of the work required at the main building in Cathays Park. The work will include significant roof repairs and it will also include electrical work on the fire system.


[224]   You will be aware, I’m sure, of maintenance backlog works at St Fagan’s, so this money will also be able to assist in renovating and maintaining those buildings. In terms of the library, the increase again is very substantial—it’s £7.78 million—and this will assist in the library addressing some of the problems that they have with asbestos, with the fire system, and also with the external fabric of the building.


[225]   Dai Lloyd: Diolch am hynny. Yn dilyn o hynny, a allech chi ddweud wrthyf i i ba raddau mae’r dyraniadau i’r gyllideb yma yn y maes yma yn cael eu hysbysu gan eich ymrwymiad chi i Dreftadaeth Cymru, Historic Wales? 


Dai Lloyd: Thank you for that. Following on from that, can you tell me to what extent the budget allocations in this area are informed by your commitment to establish Historic Wales?

[226]   Ken Skates: Well, I’m also very pleased that we’re increasing, by a significant amount, the revenue budgets for the library and for the national museum and also for the books council. In terms of Historic Wales, you’ll be aware that the steering group’s work is ongoing at this moment. Once the steering group has reported, we will proceed to public consultation and with any recommendations and further action that needs to take place. Thereafter, we would expect to be able to allocate any resource that Historic Wales would require. Given the time frames, that may not happen within the next financial year. However, if early work can be conducted in bringing more activities together to promote the historic environment, then I think with the additional resources that are being made available to national institutions, I’d hope that we’d be able to get a quick win.


[227]   Dai Lloyd: A jest yn olaf ar y pwynt yma, fel y gwnes i grybwyll, mae’r gyllideb yn y meysydd hyn wedi bod yn dynn iawn dros y blynyddoedd ac wrth gwrs y mae goblygiadau o ran cyflogi a chadw staff, yn enwedig aelodau staff hŷn. Beth ydych chi’n disgwyl ei weld—unrhyw wahaniaeth yn sut y mae staff yn cael eu cyflogi, neu yn y nifer o staff yn y meysydd yma a fydd yn cael eu cyflogi i’r dyfodol?


Dai Lloyd: And just finally on this point, as I’ve already mentioned, the budget in these areas has been extremely tight over the years, and that has implications for the employment and retention of staff, particularly senior members of staff or long-serving staff. Would you expect to see any difference in the way staff are employed, or in the numbers of staff that will be employed in these areas in the future?


[228]   Ken Skates: My aspiration for the heritage sector, indeed, the whole of the cultural sector, is to grow the number of people who are employed in it, and to raise the quality of jobs and the incomes that people earn. That’s the purpose behind Historic Wales. I wish to see the sector become more sustainable to attract more people as participants, as customers, as learners and also as staff. I wish to see a significant increase in the number of people who are physically active and active creatively in Wales, and that means that we have to have institutions that are strong and sustainable, so that people can actually access the services that they offer, for the benefit of not just individuals, but entire communities.




[229]   In terms of staffing, I am conscious that there was a prolonged dispute at the national museum. I was pleased to play my part in bringing that to a resolution and I also appreciate that there are ongoing talks that are taking place at the moment. I think it would be a matter for the national museum itself insofar as how talks proceed, but I would hope that they proceed in a way that is very amicable and respectful of the people who were employed within the institution.


[230]   Bethan Jenkins: I just wanted to ask briefly on that: if the moneys have been allocated and you’ve said where the money is going for the museum, what’s to stop there being an issue again with regard to staffing costs? Obviously, it’s 80 per cent of the whole budget and the money you’ve given is not going to go into that area, so how are you going to potentially grapple with the fact that this may rear its head again?


[231]   Ken Skates: Given the recent history of industrial relations, especially given that I intervened, it was important that I followed that up with questions concerning ongoing talks between management, senior management and, in particular, the unions. So, I asked for a report on how the museum had learnt from recent experience and how it would take forward any lessons learnt. Based on the information that’s been provided, I am more hopeful that disputes can be avoided this time, but I will be maintaining a very vigilant look at what’s happening at the national museum.


[232]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay, thanks. Suzy Davies.


[233]   Suzy Davies: Just to go back to the capital spend on museums and libraries, which is very welcome, can you just confirm whether that’s an in-year budget or over the four years?


[234]   Ken Skates: No, I believe that’s—. Is that in-year? It will be carried forward if—


[235]   Ms Antoniazzi: The capital that the Minister’s just described is for the next financial year. That’s right, Alyson, isn’t it?


[236]   Suzy Davies: That’s fine, thank you. Bearing in mind that your spending programme area—capital and revenue combined—for 2017-18 is £103-odd million, that’s over 10 per cent of the total budget. How can you be sure that’s going to be spent all in-year?


[237]   Ken Skates: Well, this work has been identified over a number of years, and both institutions, I think it’s fair to say, have been able to carry out thorough appraisals of how long the work would take to complete. So, I would expect that work to be completed within the course of the next financial year. Have we had any further information on when it will commence?


[238]   Ms Antoniazzi: Well, as soon as we are able to commence their budgets, but this work has been long planned, and as with all aspects of management of the library and the museum, we stay in very close contact with them. There is constant official discussion at official level, and obviously the Minister has regular meetings with the leadership as well.


[239]   Suzy Davies: And what happens if they don’t spend it all in-year? It’s a lot of money.


[240]   Ken Skates: It is a lot of money. We’d have to look at whether it could be carried forward, but we have been assured that it can be spent over the course of one financial year.


[241]   Suzy Davies: Okay, thanks. Thank you, Chair.


[242]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym yn symud ymlaen at yr amgylchedd hanesyddol a naturiol ac mae Hannah Blythyn eisiau gofyn cwestiwn ynglŷn â Cadw yn benodol.


Bethan Jenkins: We move on to the historic and natural environment and Hannah Blythyn wants to ask a question about Cadw, specifically.

[243]   Hannah Blythyn: Diolch. Just to come in briefly on Cadw, because I’ve seen in the budget that Cadw has had its budget reduced from £4.8 million to £3.3 million. In your paper, you say this is going to be overcome by the increase in income generated and I see you’re on track to meet the target. I’m just wondering what assessment has been done as to how this is going to happen and what has happened so far, and how it’s to be sustained going forward.


[244]   Ken Skates: I’d like to put on the record my thanks to officials within Cadw, who have done a phenomenal amount of work over the last year in raising income levels and also in increasing the number of members of Cadw and the number of people who visit the sites. I set what I thought was a very demanding and stretching target of a 15.7 per cent increase in income generation this year. I thought that was quite considerable, but I thought it could be achieved. I’m very pleased that they’re going to excel; they’re going to exceed that and generate £6.2 million in income. It’s a fantastic result and it means that Cadw’s success can contribute to additional resource for the national museum and the national library. I do not wish to operate a winner-takes-all philosophy for the culture sector. Instead, we all share responsibility for one another, and we have a shared destiny. The heritage sector is too important for individual organisations to be precious about their own work and to fail to collaborate and to work with one another.


[245]   Bethan Jenkins: Are you saying that they’re failing, then? Are they failing to collaborate? Is that what you’re implying?


[246]   Ken Skates: No, but it has not happened enough. It has not happened enough.


[247]   Bethan Jenkins: Why is that, then?


[248]   Ken Skates: Well, I think you’ve already had the director of the national museum here, so I would have expected that you’d asked him why.


[249]   Bethan Jenkins: I’m asking you now.


[250]   Ken Skates: Well, I don’t think they collaborated enough in spite of what we put in remit letters. I think that we have, as a Government, been able to provide capital funding to assist in some major significant projects, particularly within the museum, to raise income. We’ve also delivered the Fusion programme, which has assisted in more collaborative work, but I think more still needs to be done. So, in terms of setting my benchmark, which, albeit, is very high in terms of what collaboration means, many are yet to reach that point. I wish to see it reached, not least because although Cadw has been incredibly successful in raising income this year, should they be expected year upon year to shoulder a greater degree of responsibility? I don’t think that that would be fair. We all need to operate together within the heritage sector. I think it’s absolutely essential. Cadw are on track to achieve the highest number of visitors this year—their highest level of income ever as well—and I wish to see whatever lessons can be taken from what Cadw has achieved applied to other institutions as well, and for those institutions to share expertise so that all can benefit.


[251]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. Suzy Davies has more to probe on Cadw.


[252]   Suzy Davies: Yes, can I just come in on the Cadw capital budget at this stage?


[253]   Ken Skates: Yes.


[254]   Suzy Davies: Obviously, you’ve had an additional £9.5 million capital; £11 million is going to the museums and libraries and £1.5 million shortfall coming out of Cadw’s capital budget. The fact that that’s a third of Cadw’s capital budget shows how small that capital budget is and always has been. Bearing in mind that you’ve said, when we’re looking at capital expenditure—it tends to be over a period of time that you should have capital programmes in place—what’s going to have to be delayed now in Cadw’s capital expenditure programme?


[255]   Ken Skates: No programmes are being delayed. We’ve carried out a thorough assessment of the maintenance plans for Cadw, and no programmes in the next financial year will have to be delayed. The amount—


[256]   Suzy Davies: Sorry, I have to butt in there and say, doesn’t that just scream that these programmes are completely unambitious? What’s going to fall down as a result of these cuts?


[257]   Ken Skates: No, but we base our capital budget on the work that is required, and the work that is required in the next financial year and that can be carried out in the next financial year equates to the amount that we have allocated to Cadw. In terms of maintenance programmes, and in terms of capital investment, I’m sure you’re aware of the very significant resource that has been invested in Cadw in recent years through, for example, the heritage tourism project, which has seen a very significant sum, £19 million, invested in some of our most iconic Cadw buildings. So, actually, we’re at a point now where, because of continued investment and because we thoroughly examined what can be achieved and what needs to be delivered in the next 12 months, we’ve been able to allocate the resource appropriately and then divert other resources to the national museum and the national library to help them.


[258]   Suzy Davies: So, have you been underspending on capital maintenance in the last few years?


[259]   Ken Skates: I don’t think—. Have we been underspending on a regular basis at all? Sometimes, we will underspend, but—.


[260]   Ms Rogers: It depends on what can be achieved within the financial year, but on a general basis we wouldn’t underspend. It’s quite the opposite, in fact, Minister.


[261]   Suzy Davies: Well, then I go back to my question about what’s not being done. Are you saying that nothing is not being done as a result of this cut? Does that mean that the capital maintenance budget is becoming a bit of an irrelevance because those activities are being absorbed into different projects, such as the one you’ve just mentioned? Sorry, I’ve completely forgotten what it is.


[262]   Ken Skates: No. Well, that’s actually come to an end now, anyway, so that’s been delivered. So, there will be a next phase of capital programmes, and, indeed, we’re looking—


[263]   Suzy Davies: But it’s not coming out of that budget. Because that is a tiny budget, Cabinet Secretary. You’re not going to be able to do much with it.


[264]   Ken Skates: We also need to bear in mind that the income that’s generated by Cadw has increased significantly, and that income can supplement any reduction in direct capital.


[265]   Suzy Davies: But that income is not being generated at the sites that need the attention.


[266]   Ken Skates: It doesn’t matter whether it’s at the sites that need attention—the whole point is that Cadw incorporates more than 100 sites, and with the revenue that’s being raised across all of the pay-for-entry sites, we can then distribute the capital that’s required at those sites that are most pressing. So, again, it goes back to the principle of Cadw sites working together for mutual benefit, and where there are weaknesses, others are able to contribute through the increase in income that’s generated at the pay-for-entry sites. But in terms of the overall income that’s been generated, it’s been significant, and as a result of that we’re able to then allocate to the national museum and to the national library capital sums from our budget.


[267]   Suzy Davies: But not to Cadw sites.


[268]   Ken Skates: Well, the Cadw sites have already had a very significant capital spend carried out on them.


[269]   Suzy Davies: Some Cadw sites.


[270]   Ken Skates: Some Cadw sites—many Cadw sites. In addition, the additional income that’s been generated through the improved performance at Cadw sites will lead to an increase in the availability of resources for capital programmes as well.


[271]   Suzy Davies: I understand what you’re saying on that, but will you be publishing a list of where you intend to spend that additional income?


[272]   Ken Skates: Yes, that can be done, because we’ve already assessed where it’s going to be spent, so I can provide a note on where works will be carried out based on—


[273]   Suzy Davies: Yes, and particularly if there’s any capital work that’s actually not going to be done in the next four years as a result of getting money from that income stream provided by Cadw sites instead. I want to be able to see the set-off. Is that okay?


[274]   Ken Skates: Yes, absolutely.


[275]   Suzy Davies: Lovely, thank you.


[276]   Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters.


[277]   Lee Waters: Can I ask—the income that Cadw is going to be generating, will that be revenue or capital funding?


[278]   Ken Skates: That it’s generating—it’s brought in as revenue and it’s brought into our department.


[279]   Lee Waters: So, can that then be spent on capital, or is that restricted to revenue?


[280]   Ken Skates: I believe it could be spent on capital. It could be spent on investment, for example, in new visitor attractions within Cadw sites.


[281]   Lee Waters: Okay, that’s very flexible accounting.


[282]   Ken Skates: I believe it can—. Can it be spent on visitor attractions?


[283]   Ms Rogers: Yes, as a total resource we can deploy it in various ways.


[284]   Lee Waters: That’s a very generous-minded auditor.


[285]   Ken Skates: And general maintenance as well.


[286]   Lee Waters: Okay. The reduction—will that affect the baseline or is that going to be just a one-off reduction in their capital budget?


[287]   Ken Skates: I wouldn’t imagine it would affect the—. It doesn’t affect the baseline because it’s a one-off—


[288]   Lee Waters: It’s currently £4.8 million, it’s going to be £3.3 million—will it then be £3.3 million on an ongoing basis, or will it return to £4.8 million?


[289]   Ms Rogers: The profile varies over the four years, so in the last financial year you’ll see that the Cadw budget has increased back to £4.3 million.  


[290]   Lee Waters: Okay. So, it’s essentially a one-year hit—it will taper back upwards over the four years. Is that right?


[291]   Ms Rogers: The profile changes over the four years, in line with the comprehensive inspection programme of works.


[292]   Lee Waters: Okay, thank you.


[293]   Bethan Jenkins: I just had one additional question on Cadw, because, obviously, its marketing budget was increased for something specific—for a large dragon—but were these funds from within Cadw’s budget, or was it an external one? Because I’m just struggling with—. You said earlier that the museums are not doing enough, but we don’t get annual accounts from Cadw, and I want to understand how much Cadw have had in the last financial year above its usual budget, because, obviously, you will appreciate that the other institutions may not be afforded the same type of uplift in-year. In fact, it’s been the opposite, because they are that external body to Government. So, if you could help us understand that a bit more, that would be great.


[294]   Ken Skates: Well, the dragon was paid for from within the Cadw budget line, and the museum we did provide in-year funding for, again, a blockbuster exhibition space. We’re always willing to consider supporting any installation that would raise additional income or drive an increase in attendance numbers. In terms of the dragon, it proved to be a hugely successful—


[295]   Bethan Jenkins: It wasn’t really about the dragon; it was about where the money came from and the additional money to marketing that emanated from that.


[296]   Ken Skates: Actually, again, it was a relatively little cost. You pay for the actual construction of a dragon—


[297]   Bethan Jenkins: I’ve started something now. [Laughter.]


[298]   Ken Skates: —and thereafter the marketing takes care of itself, because, essentially, it’s the population that markets it, through Twitter largely. So, actually, the marketing of it was pretty negligible; it’s the actual installation that costs the money and, again, that wasn’t a great expense. As we move towards the Year of Legends, I think it’s going to be more important that we create more innovative ways of promoting and advertising our great iconic venues. We’re looking at a number of measures during the course of 2017 to promote Wales as a legendary place and I’ll be able to bring more details of those—




[299]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay, more dragons then.


[300]   Ken Skates: Not necessarily more dragons, but more investments.


[301]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay, the suspense is killing me.


[302]   Ken Skates: I’ll be making a statement in the Chamber in the coming months.


[303]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. We just have to ask about media and publishing because we need to cover that as well. So, Neil Hamilton has some questions.


[304]   Neil Hamilton: This is a tiddler in your budget, of course, but you managed to protect it this year—a slight increase of £123,000 overall in that budget, but there’s a massive contraction in the, albeit minute, capital budget. Can you explain what that’s about—down from £0.06 million to £0.03 million?


[305]   Ken Skates: Yes, that’s largely due to the one-off spend that was made in the headquarters building in Aberystwyth—a capital programme that was urgently required. And, again, that was conducted on the basis of need to maintain the building thoroughly and especially to make sure that it is weatherproof.


[306]   Neil Hamilton: There is an independent review of publishing and literature outstanding. It was due to report last month. Have you got any idea when it will actually report?


[307]   Ken Skates: This month.


[308]   Neil Hamilton: This month, very good. You’ve said already that the conclusions of this report may have some impact on future funding for this area. It is a vital area, particularly for Welsh language publications, and with the growth of new media as well, we’ll want to develop in that area, I presume.


[309]   Ken Skates: And that’s why I gave the green light to this review, because I felt that the entire publishing industry needed to have an assessment of the support that it gets from Welsh Government, especially in the context of new and emerging digital technologies potentially disrupting the way that business is done and the need for the publishing sector to have the necessary resources and support to respond to those changes. The review resulted in a huge number of observations being submitted. I think, in the end, it was more than 800, so it shows the value of the sector to Welsh society. I’m looking forward to receiving that review, as I say, this month.


[310]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Jest cwestiwn clou i orffen ynglŷn â’r fforwm cyfryngau annibynnol a hefyd yr arian i ddarlledu. Mae’n dweud bod yr arian darlledu’n cynnwys adnoddau staff o brif grŵp gwariant gwasanaethau canolog a gweinyddu Llywodraeth Cymru. Gyda sefydlu’r fforwm, a ydych chi’n gweld bod angen rhywfaint o gyllideb yn hynny o beth, a hefyd gyda’r memorandwm dealltwriaeth gyda’r BBC a hefyd gyda Ofcom yn y dyfodol?


Bethan Jenkins: Just a final question to close in terms of the independent media forum and money for broadcasting. It says that this includes staff resources from the Welsh Government’s MEG for central services and administration. With the establishment of the forum, do you believe that there is a need for a budget for that, and also with the memorandum of understanding with the BBC and also with Ofcom in the future?


[311]   Ken Skates: At this moment in time, the costs are just associated with staffing. So, I don’t have a resource that’s being attributed to that line of work. If additional resources were needed in future years, then we’d have to consider it on the basis of need and competing demands for our resources.


[312]   Bethan Jenkins: So, the forum will be the staffing costs, so that any costs—


[313]   Ken Skates: All Welsh Government costs.


[314]   Bethan Jenkins: Sorry?


[315]   Ken Skates: All Welsh Government staffing costs centrally, yes.


[316]   Bethan Jenkins: Right, okay. Any other quick questions? No. All right. We’ve already gone over time. Thank you very much for your evidence session here today. Diolch yn fawr. Can we just have two minutes private, please? Thank you.


Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng 11:03 ac 11:10.
The meeting adjourned between 11:03 and 11:10.


Craffu ar y Gyllideb gyda Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes
Budget Scrutiny with the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language


[317]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch yn fawr. Rydym ni’n mynd i fynd at eitem 4, sef craffu ar y gyllideb gyda Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes, a diolch yn fawr iawn i Alun Davies am ddod heddiw gyda’i swyddogion: dirprwy gyfarwyddwr y Gymraeg, Llywodraeth Cymru, Bethan Webb, ac Awen Penri, pennaeth cangen y Gymraeg mewn addysg, Llywodraeth Cymru. Diolch yn fawr iawn i chi am ddod heddiw. Rydym ni’n mynd i fynd yn syth i mewn i gwestiynau, os yw hynny’n iawn, a byddaf yn cychwyn gyda’r cwestiynau hynny. Pa mor ffyddiog ydych chi fod digon o adnoddau nawr i wireddu’r nod o 1 miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050 o fewn eich cyllideb chi, a hefyd ar draws y gyllideb yn gyffredinol?


Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much. We’re going to go to item 4 now, which is budget scrutiny with the Minister for Lifelong Learning and the Welsh Language, and I thank Alun Davies for coming today with his officials: deputy director for Welsh language, Bethan Webb, and Awen Penri, head of Welsh in education development branch. Thank you very much to you for coming today. We’re going to go straight into questions, if that’s okay, and I will start those questions. How confident are you that there are sufficient resources now to achieve the aim of 1 million Welsh speakers by 2050 within your budget, and also across the budget more generally?

[318]   Gweinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes (Alun Davies): Rwy’n hapus iawn gyda’r gyllideb sydd gyda ni. Mae’r gyllideb wedi cynyddu, fel y mae’r pwyllgor yn ymwybodol, ac rwy’n falch iawn o hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, wrth gwrs, nid oes gyda ni strategaeth; rydym ni’n dal i ymgynghori ar hynny. Daeth yr ymgynghoriad ffurfiol i ben ddechrau’r wythnos yma, ac mi fyddwn ni’n ystyried yr atebion rydym ni wedi eu cael fel rhan o’r ymgynghoriad yn ystod y misoedd nesaf, cyn cyhoeddi’r strategaeth newydd yn y gwanwyn. Ond a gaf i ddweud hyn? Rwy’n falch iawn bod gyda ni gyllideb sy’n ein galluogi i wneud beth rydym ni’n gobeithio ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, a hefyd sy’n ein galluogi ni i wneud pethau newydd yn y dyfodol. Mae hynny’n newydd i ni. So, rwy’n falch iawn bod gyda ni’r math o gyllideb a fydd yn ein galluogi ni i ychwanegu at ein gweithgareddau. Rydym ni’n cael trafodaethau ar hyn o bryd. Fel y mae’r pwyllgor yn ymwybodol, mi oedd yna gytundeb yn y maes yma gyda Phlaid Cymru, ac rydym ni’n mynd i drafod gyda Phlaid Cymru a gydag eraill sut rydym ni, wedi hynny, yn gweithredu ar y cytundeb sydd gyda ni. Felly, mae’r trafodaethau yma’n mynd i ddigwydd yn ystod yr wythnosau nesaf, mi fuaswn i’n gobeithio, ac, erbyn i ni gyrraedd mis Rhagfyr, pan fydd pleidlais derfynol ar y gyllideb, bydd gennym fwy o fanylion ar y meysydd hyn.


The Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language (Alun Davies): I'm very content with the budget that we have. The budget has increased, as the committee will be aware, and I'm very pleased about that. At the moment, of course, we have no strategy; we are still consulting on that. The formal consultation closed at the beginning of this week, and we will be considering the responses that we’ve received to that consultation over the next few months, before we publish that new strategy in the spring. But may I say this? I am very pleased that we have a budget that enables us to do what we hope to achieve, and also enables us to do some new things in the future. That's new for us. So I'm very pleased that we have a budget that will enable us to add to our activities. We are having discussions at the moment. As the committee will be aware, there was an agreement in this area with Plaid Cymru, and we are going to discuss with Plaid Cymru and others how we implement that agreement that we made. So, these discussions will be ongoing over the next few weeks, I would hope, and, by the time we get to December, and the final vote on the budget, we will have greater details in these areas.

[319]   Bethan Jenkins: Grêt, diolch, achos dyna roeddwn i eisiau ei ofyn yn fy ail gwestiwn, ynglŷn â’r £10.6 miliwn o ran camau gweithredu ar gyfer y Gymraeg mewn addysg. Mae’r £5 miliwn ychwanegol o’r cytundeb gyda Phlaid Cymru, ac wedyn mae yna £5 miliwn ychwanegol yn cael ei ddosbarthu yn unol â blaenoriaethau’r strategaeth newydd ar y Gymraeg, yn ôl eich tystiolaeth chi. Ai arian sydd heb ei glustnodi eto yw hynny, neu a yw’r arian hynny yn mynd i gael ei glustnodi ar gyfer y datganiad rydym ni wedi ei gael heddiw ynglŷn â’r Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol?


Bethan Jenkins: Thank you very much, because that’s what I wanted to ask my second question on, the £10.6 million in terms of the Welsh in education action. There’s the additional £5 million from the agreement with Plaid Cymru, and then there’s an additional £5 million that will be distributed in accordance with the priorities of the new Welsh language strategy, according to your evidence. Is that money not earmarked yet, or is that money going to be earmarked for the statement that we’ve had today in terms of the Coleg Cymraeg?

[320]   Alun Davies: Ie, fel rhan o’r gyllideb, nid yw’r arian ar gyfer y coleg Cymraeg yn arian ychwanegol—mae’n arian sydd wedi ei drosglwyddo o gyllideb Cyngor Cyllido Addysg Uwch Cymru i’n cyllideb ni. Rwy’n falch iawn o hynny, achos mae—


Alun Davies: Yes, as part of the budget, the Coleg Cymraeg funding isn’t additional funding—it is funding that has been transferred from the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales budget to ours. I’m very pleased about that, because—

[321]   Bethan Jenkins: Felly, mae hynny’n wahanol i’r £10.6 miliwn.


Bethan Jenkins: So that’s different to the £10.6 million.

[322]   Alun Davies: Mae gennym £5.4 miliwn fel rhan o’r Coleg Cymraeg, ac rydym yn falch iawn o hynny. Gyda’r £5 miliwn ar gyfer addysg, rydym ni yn ystyried ar hyn o bryd sut ydym am ddefnyddio hynny. Os caf i esbonio i’r pwyllgor lle rwyf i’n dod ohono ar hyn o bryd: licen i weld, os ydym yn gallu, edrych ar rai prosiectau ar addysg i oedolion, a sut rydym ni’n gallu ehangu’r gwaith sy’n cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd, ac yn arbennig hybu’r Gymraeg yn y gweithle. Rydym ni’n awyddus iawn i ystyried sut rydym ni’n gwneud hynny. Mae gennym ni rhai prosiectau sydd wedi bod yn ddigon llwyddiannus, ac rwy’n credu ein bod ni wedi trafod y rhain o flaen y pwyllgor yn barod, fel cyfnodau sabothol, a chyrsiau sy’n ddwys iawn pan fydd yn dod i wella Cymraeg gweithwyr mewn sectorau gwahanol. Ac rwyf eisiau edrych ar sut y gallwn ni ehangu’r gwaith yma a sicrhau ein bod ni’n gallu ehangu o ran strwythur ac o ran y sector, ond hefyd ehangu o ran y niferoedd sy’n gallu cymryd rhan yn y cyrsiau yma. Felly, rydym ni eisiau gwneud hynny.


Alun Davies: Yes, we have £5.4 million as part of the Coleg Cymraeg, and I’m very pleased about that. In terms of the £5 million for education, we are currently considering how we will use those funds. If I just may explain to the committee my stance at the moment, I would like us to look at certain projects in terms of adult education, and how we can expand the work currently undertaken, particularly promoting the Welsh language in the workplace. We’re extremely eager to consider how we can achieve that. We do have some projects that have been successful, and I think we’ve discussed these at committee already, with sabbaticals, and intensive courses when it comes to improving Welsh language skills among the workforce in various sectors. And I do want to look at how we can expand and enhance that work and ensure that we can enhance the structure and the sector, but also in terms of the numbers that can participate in these courses. So, we want to do that.

[323]   Hefyd, rydw i eisiau gweld sut rydym ni’n gallu datblygu’r rhain gyda’r Ganolfan Dysgu Cymraeg Genedlaethol, ac mae’r trafodaethau yma wedi dechrau. Mae gyda ni rai opsiynau o’n blaenau ni ar hyn o bryd. Unwaith rydw i wedi cael y cyfarfodydd a’r trafodaethau gyda Phlaid Cymru, byddwn i’n hapus iawn i gyhoeddi’r rhain, ac mi wnaf i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor cyn i’ch ymchwiliad chi ddod i ben.


I also want to consider how we can develop these with the National Centre for Learning Welsh, and these discussions have commenced. We do have certain options at the moment, and once I’ve had those meetings and that discussion with Plaid Cymru, I’d be very pleased to announce those, and I will write to the committee before your inquiry concludes.


[324]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Mae Dai Lloyd eisiau gofyn cwestiwn.


Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. Dai Lloyd wants to ask a question.

[325]   Dai Lloyd: Dim ond er gwybodaeth, yn wir, achos mae’r mater yn gymhleth yn nhermau faint o arian sy’n cael ei wario ar y Gymraeg ar draws pob portffolio, ac ati, a pha Weinidog sy’n gyfrifol am ba faes hefyd. Wedyn, jest yn dilyn hynny, roeddech yn sôn am gynyddu’r defnydd o Gymraeg yn y gweithle. Ai chi neu rhywun arall sy’n edrych ar ôl prentisiaethau drwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg, achos mae yna brinder darpariaeth yn fanna? Pa Weinidog sy’n edrych ar ôl hynny, os rydym ni’n sôn am gynyddu defnydd y Gymraeg yn y gweithle?


Dai Lloyd: Just for information, indeed, because this is a complex issue in terms of how much funding is spent on the Welsh language across every portfolio and which Minister is responsible for these areas. Following on from that, you mentioned using Welsh in the workplace. Is it you or someone else who is responsible for apprenticeships through the medium of Welsh, because there is a lack of provision there? Which Minister is looking after that, if we’re talking about increasing the use of Welsh in the workplace?



[326]   Alun Davies: Julie James a fydd yn gyfrifol am yr enghraifft rydych chi wedi ei nodi, ond a gaf i ddweud bod y Gymraeg yn gyfrifoldeb i’r Llywodraeth yn ei chyfanrwydd? Mae gan bob un Gweinidog gyfrifoldeb dros y Gymraeg, i sicrhau bod yna ddatblygiadau a bod yna, dim jest gwariant, ond gweithgareddau i gefnogi’r Gymraeg. Felly, er enghraifft, mae gyda ni adnoddau ar gyfer swyddogion iaith ym mhob un bwrdd iechyd. Y Gweinidog iechyd sydd yn gyfrifol am hynny, ac fe fydd yn gyfrifol i sicrhau ein bod ni’n gallu cynyddu a chryfhau y Gymraeg yn y gweithlu yn y sector iechyd.


Alun Davies: Julie James will be responsible for that particular example you identified, but may I say that the Welsh language is a responsibility for the Government as a whole? Every Minister has responsibility for the Welsh language, to ensure that there are developments and that there are, not just expenditure, but activities to support the Welsh language. So, for example, we have resources for language officers in all health boards. The health Minister is responsible for that, and he will be responsible for ensuring that we can increase and enhance the use of Welsh in the workforce in the health sector, for example.


[327]   Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters.


[328]   Lee Waters: Yes, I’m just curious about how the £10.6 million is going to be spent and how that’s going to be guided by evidence. What’s the evidence base that you’re using to prioritise this extra spend?


[329]   Alun Davies: The £10.6 million will be spent in line with our developing policy objectives, in terms of creating the 1 million speakers. In answer to the earlier question, we’re looking at the moment at a number of different options available to us. I outlined in answer to the earlier question where our priorities lie. Now, in terms of the evidence base for that, we have run a number of pilots on, for example, the sabbatical project for teachers. That’s been successful—we’ve seen that, we’ve got evidence of that, so we’re looking towards expanding it, and we will be looking towards how we can do that given the resources available to us. So, we’re looking at what’s worked. We know that some of the work, for example, with Cymraeg i Blant, has been successful in terms of the introduction of that programme, and we’ll be looking towards expanding it and building upon it. So, what we’re looking at doing is looking at the building blocks that we have in place—the building blocks that have been successful, that have worked, that have achieved the objectives that have been set for them—and then we’re looking at expanding and building on those areas of success. 


[330]   But we also, I think, need to look at areas where we see the gaps, if you like, and I would invite the committee to be—how shall I put it—sympathetic to our attempts to do new things. Because I think one of the things we’ve got to do is to not simply rely on—. We’ve got to rely on what works, clearly, and build on that basis. But I also want to look at how we achieve our objectives in areas where we know that there are currently challenges and failures. I’ll give you an example of what I mean by that. We know that in schools where Welsh is introduced or taught for children up to teen age, for example, the children learn, pick up and use Welsh very well. But we also know, in the teenage years, that there’s a big falling away in the use of Welsh and access to Welsh. I would like to look at how we can develop different projects or programmes to help sustain and support the use of Welsh outside school amongst teenagers. Some of those will succeed, some of those will fail. I hope the committee will recognise that what we’re seeking to do is to work in a way that is pushing at the boundaries of what we currently do at the moment.


[331]   Lee Waters: I’m not suggesting we shouldn’t innovate—I’m just questioning the extent to which we evaluate and learn from it. So, for example, the bilingual champions’ contracts are coming to an end. What’s the evaluation about what’s been successful and not successful there?


[332]   Alun Davies: We found that they have been successful, largely, in what they’ve achieved. Certainly, the institutions themselves are taking on all of those people, both in terms of either continuing their posts in line of the way it’s currently being funded, taking on the funding responsibility themselves, or dividing those responsibilities amongst other members of staff. So, we’ve found that that project has worked quite successfully. If Members are interested, I’m quite happy to write to the committee with a bit more detail on that project, and how we believe it has helped to sustain and support Welsh in that particular sector.


[333]   Lee Waters: So, what’s been less successful?


[334]   Alun Davies: What’s been less successful? I think where we are finding challenges, if you like, is in one of the areas that I’ve just outlined—the use of Welsh outside of school environments in social environments, particularly in areas such as where I represent in the south-east, where Welsh is not the language of the community, if you like, and being able to support and to sustain activities in Welsh that will strengthen the use of Welsh by particularly teenagers or young people who have Welsh given to them by school. So, we’re looking at how we can expand on that. We haven’t at the moment, I don’t believe, found a way that has been successful in doing that, and I think we do need to look at that in a lot more detail. It’s certainly one of the areas I want to focus upon in terms of bringing forward a strategy.


[335]   Bethan Jenkins: Suzy Davies.


[336]   Suzy Davies: Yes, I just wonder if I can ask a question on the relationship between the Welsh in Education line and lifelong learning, because there seems to have been a bit of a change in how lifelong learning is demonstrated within the lines. I think, in particular, of how much it cost to set up the national institutions that we’ve got across Wales now delivering Welsh language in the community, for example, and where that money’s come from. And also the relationship between the Coleg Cymraeg Cenedlaethol, which has obviously got money out of the Welsh in Education line, and what will be happening in further education colleges on vocational courses, where we’ll be hoping to see more use of Welsh language in vocational courses. I’m a bit confused about this bit in the middle, which is actually leading to what Welsh in the workplace is going to look like in 15 years’ time. Because it’s got to start there, hasn’t it? What’s being spent from where, basically? I can’t see it.


[337]   Alun Davies: I think you’re right to identify that, Suzy. I think it goes to answer the question that Lee asked earlier in terms of where we haven’t been successful. I think further education is a good example of that, where we do have some very good things happening in further education, but we don’t have the systemic approach which the Coleg Cymraeg has given us in higher education. Kirsty’s made her announcement—I think it was made this morning, or it’s due to be made today—on the group that will be looking at that. She made the initial announcement at the National Eisteddfod. The group has now been formed and will meet later this month to start looking at how we take that forward.


[338]   Bethan Jenkins: A yw’r gyllideb honno yn dod o’r gyllideb addysg—o gyllideb Kirsty, felly?


Bethan Jenkins: Is that coming from the education budget—from Kirsty’s budget?


[339]   Alun Davies: Ydy.


Alun Davies: Yes.


[340]   Suzy Davies: Dyna beth oeddwn i’n ei ofyn, mewn ffordd.


Suzy Davies: That’s what I was asking, in a way.


[341]   Alun Davies: Mi fydd y gyllideb ar gyfer y gweithgor yn dod o’r gyllideb addysg, ac mi fydd cyllideb y Coleg Cymraeg yn dod o’r gyllideb yr ydych chi’n craffu arni y bore yma—fy nghyllideb i. Felly, rwy’n fodlon iawn gyda hynny.


Alun Davies: The budget for that work will come from the education budget, and the budget of the Coleg Cymraeg will come from the budget that you’re scrutinising this morning—my budget. So, I’m very content with that.


[342]   To go back to Suzy’s question, I think if we are looking at our particular challenges at the moment, another response to Lee would be in terms of economic policy. We haven’t been able to focus on how we can use economic policy to sustain Welsh-speaking communities who are facing significant challenges sometimes, in terms of a strong economic, sustainable base to enable people to find work and to live within different Welsh-speaking communities. We need to look at that, and we need to look at that very, very hard in—


[343]   Suzy Davies: I’m just wondering which line it’s being paid for from.


[344]   Alun Davies: Well, that’s coming out of our strategic review. Clearly, as I said in an earlier answer to Dai Lloyd, if we take forward economic activities, that will be coming from Ken Skates’s department to sustain and support that. The Welsh language is a part of the work of every Minister in the Government, and what we’ve got here are some specific budget lines that support specific work on the Welsh language, but I can’t think of a single Minister in this Government who doesn’t have support for the language as a part of their portfolio responsibilities. So, you will see—. I accept that this makes scrutiny sometimes quite difficult—


[345]   Suzy Davies: It does. It really does.


[346]   Alun Davies: —that we have a significant expenditure both in terms of delivery, particularly in education, of course, but also then in terms of policy, in terms of sustaining and supporting Welsh language policies, and that happens right across the Government.


[347]   Suzy Davies: You can tell me, though, where the costs for the setting of the national agency comes from.


[348]   Alun Davies: It comes from our budgets, Welsh in Education.


[349]   Suzy Davies: And it’s the Welsh in Education budget.


[350]   Alun Davies: Yes.


[351]   Suzy Davies: Okay, not the more general Welsh language budget.


[352]   Alun Davies: No, it’s Welsh in Education.


[353]   Suzy Davies: Any likelihood of a crossover between those at some point in the future? Not the set-up costs, obviously, but the ongoing costs.


[354]   Alun Davies: If there are crossovers then, clearly, they will be notified to yourselves through the supplementary budgetary process. I would certainly undertake to write to the committee if we were making changes to existing budget lines. I think it’s right and proper that the committee be informed of changes that are made to a budget during the year. We will always vire funds from budget to budget during the spend in-year, and that’s usually done through the supplementary budget process, which is a National Assembly process. But if there are any other changes to the budgets that take place during the year, I would certainly be happy to undertake to write to the committee to inform you of those changes taking place.


[355]   Suzy Davies: Okay.


[356]   Bethan Jenkins: I think I have to clarify something, because I don’t know whether it’s just me who is confused. Has the £5.4 million for the Coleg Cymraeg been vired over from Kirsty Williams’s—


[357]   Alun Davies: Yes.


[358]   Bethan Jenkins: Yes. And that, then, would mean a cut in her budget for what she would’ve used that for for education then.


[359]   Alun Davies: No, it’s not a cut.


[360]   Bethan Jenkins: It’s not a cut.


[361]   Alun Davies: The money has been transferred from one budget line to another. So, the money exists; it just exists in a different budget line. I’m happy—sitting with ourselves here, of course, any Minister would say that—but there’s no cut and there’s no increase.


[362]   Bethan Jenkins: Okay. I just needed to clarify that for the record. Hannah wants to talk about early years.


[363]   Mae yna drafodaethau ynglŷn â phwysigrwydd oedran cynnar a sut maen nhw’n gallu datblygu eu sgiliau ieithyddol.


There are discussions about the importance of early years and how they can develop language skills.

[364]   Hannah Blythyn: We know that research shows that Welsh language education is the best way to create new speakers and, as the Minister said, the earlier children learn, the more effective they’re going to be in using the Welsh language. I’m just wondering, because obviously it crosses over with Government departments, what discussions you have had with the Cabinet Secretary for Education with regard to co-ordinating in this area.


[365]   Alun Davies: In terms of the childcare offer that we’re going to be introducing as part of our manifesto commitments, Carl Sargeant is leading on that element of work. I think I’ve met Carl three or four times since being appointed in the summer to discuss these matters, together with Kirsty and with Julie James as well, looking at all the different elements of how we deliver that. My determination is that that is delivered bilingually, so that we are able to continue to deliver and develop new Welsh speakers and to introduce young children to the Welsh language where that is needed.


[366]   But in order to do that, of course, we also need the workforce, which is one of the issues that Julie James is looking at in terms of apprenticeships and one of the issues I’m looking at in terms of further education. It will be one of the issues that the group that Kirsty has established will be looking at in terms of the role of the Coleg Cymraeg. And we’re looking then at bringing together different organisations and providers, both in the public and private sectors, in order to deliver on that childcare offer. But it is a live conversation we have on a regular basis with the Ministers.


[367]   Bethan Jenkins: Jeremy.


[368]   Jeremy Miles: Diolch. Rwyf eisiau gofyn ichi am yr asiantaeth Gymraeg a lle mae’n eistedd o fewn y gyllideb yn gyffredinol. Yn benodol, a ydy’r asiantaeth yn mynd i fod yn gwneud gwaith newydd sydd ddim yn cael ei wneud nawr? A ydy hynny wedi cael ei ffactorio mewn i’r rhifau sydd gennych chi mewn golwg?


Jeremy Miles: Thank you. I want to ask you about the Welsh language agency and where that sits within the budget generally. Specifically, is the agency going to be doing new work that isn’t being done now? Has that been factored into the numbers that you have in mind?

[369]   Alun Davies: Yr asiantaeth hybu’r Gymraeg?


Alun Davies: The agency for the promotion of Welsh language?

[370]   Jeremy Miles: Ie.


Jeremy Miles: Yes.

[371]   Alun Davies: Mi fydd honno’n gwneud gwaith newydd. Rydym yn ystyried dau beth ar hyn o bryd, yn fras. Rydym yn ystyried sut y buasai’n edrych—strwythur unrhyw asiantaeth—a ble y buasai’n eistedd: a fuasai’n rhan o’r Llywodraeth, yn rhan o gorff cyhoeddus arall, neu a fuasai’n rhywbeth y buasem ni’n mynd drwy procurement process i’w sefydlu? Nid ydym wedi gwneud y penderfyniadau hynny eto.


Alun Davies: That will be undertaking new work. We are currently considering two things, broadly speaking. We are considering how that would look—what the structure of any agency would be—and where it would sit: would it be part of Government, part of another public body, or would it be something that we would go through a procurement process to establish? We haven’t taken those decisions as of yet.


[372]   So, rydym yn meddwl amboutu’r strwythur, y llywodraethu—y materion yma—a hefyd beth buasai rôl unrhyw sefydliad neu asiantaeth newydd, beth buasai’n ei wneud a sut buasai’n gweithredu. Rydym yng nghanol y trafodaethau yma ar hyn o bryd. Nid yw’r trafodaethau yma wedi dod i ben eto. Nid wyf i mewn sefyllfa i arwain y pwyllgor ar ba fath o gytundeb rŷm ni’n mynd i’w gael na pha fath o gasgliadau rydym yn mynd i ddod atynt yn ystod y trafodaethau yma. Ond, byddaf yn hapus iawn i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor unwaith rydym mewn sefyllfa i wneud penderfyniadau ar hynny. Mi fuaswn yn gobeithio y byddwn mewn sefyllfa i wneud y fath yna o benderfyniad cyn bod y gyllideb derfynol yn dod gerbron y Cynulliad mis Rhagfyr.


So, we are considering the structure, the governance—all of these issues—and also what the role of any new organisation or agency would be, what it would do and how it would operate. We’re in the middle of these discussion at the moment. These discussions haven’t yet been concluded. I am not currently in a position to give the committee any guidance as to what sort of conclusions we’re going to come to during these discussions and negotiations. But, I would be more than happy to write to the committee once we are in a position to take decisions in this regard. I would hope that we will be in a position to take those sorts of decisions before the final budget comes before the Assembly in December.

[373]   Jeremy Miles: Ond rŷch chi’n ffyddiog nad yw’r gwaith y mae’r asiantaeth yn mynd i’w wneud yn cael ei wneud ar hyn o bryd.


Jeremy Miles: You’re confident that the work that the agency will do isn’t being done at the moment.


[374]   Alun Davies: Ydw.


Alun Davies: Yes.

[375]   Jeremy Miles: Hynny yw, y dasg yna o hyrwyddo, mae’n waith newydd.


Jeremy Miles: That is, that promotional work is new work.

[376]   Alun Davies: Rydym ni’n edrych ar sut rŷm ni’n adeiladu ar waith presennol.


Alun Davies: We’re looking at how we’re building on current work, yes.

[377]   Jeremy Miles: Ocê. Y consyrn fydd, wrth gwrs, fod angen cyllideb ar gyfer sefydlu corff newydd a’r cwestiwn yw faint o’r arian yna sy’n cael ei ddefnyddio ar lawr gwlad i gynyddu’r defnydd o’r Gymraeg. Felly, dyna’r amcan sydd y tu ôl i’r cwestiwn sydd gennyf i. Yr ail gwestiwn sydd gennyf yw: rydych chi wedi sôn eisoes fod y gyllideb ar gyfer yr iaith Gymraeg yn gyffredinol yn rhannol gyda chi ac yn rhannol mewn adrannau eraill, wrth gwrs. Mae galwadau wedi bod ers tro byd i gynyddu’r gyllideb yn gyffredinol i wario rhyw 1 y cant o gyllideb Llywodraeth Cymru. O ran ieithoedd lleiafrifol eraill yn Ewrop, mae pobl yn defnyddio enghreifftiau yn fanna i ddangos faint mwy sydd, ar yr wyneb, yn cael ei wario arnynt. Beth yw’ch asesiad chi, hyd y bo un gennych chi, o beth yw’r ganran yn gyffredinol, ar draws y cyllidebau, sydd yn cael ei gwario ar y Gymraeg yng Nghymru?


Jeremy Miles: Okay. The concern will be, of course, that funding will be needed to establish a new body and the question is how much money is being used on the ground to increase the use of the Welsh language. So, that’s the objective behind the question that I have. The second question I have is: you’ve mentioned already that the budget for the Welsh language is partly with you and partly with other departments. There have been calls for some time to increase the budget generally to spend 1 per cent of the Welsh Government’s budget. On other minority languages in Europe, people use examples there to show how much more is spent, on the face of it, on those. What’s your assessment, insofar as you have one, in terms of the percentage, across the budgets, that is generally spent on the Welsh language in Wales?



[378]   Alun Davies: Rydw i’n ymwybodol o’r ceisiadau rydych chi’n eu disgrifio. A gaf i ddweud hyn: rydym ni’n sôn amboutu Gwlad y Basg, yn y bôn, pan rydym ni’n sôn amboutu hyn? Rydw i’n deall y gymhariaeth sydd wedi cael ei gwneud. Yng Ngwlad y Basg, maen nhw’n cyfrif arian mewn ffordd wahanol iawn i sut rydym ni’n cyfrif arian. Er enghraifft, yng Ngwlad y Basg, mi fuasen nhw’n cyfrif arian S4C fel rhan o’r 1 y cant—nid ydym ni. Maen nhw’n cyfrif cyflogau gweision sifil, ond nid ydym ni. Felly, pan rydych chi’n edrych ar wariant ar y Gymraeg ar draws Llywodraeth Cymru a Llywodraeth y Deyrnas Unedig yn nhermau S4C a’r BBC, mi fyddwch chi’n gweld bod yna wariant cynyddol. A ydym ni eisiau trio cyfrif hynny? Nid wyf i’n siŵr sut buasai hynny’n ychwanegu at ein trafodaethau. Sut ydych chi’n ychwanegu arian sy’n cael ei wario ar ysgolion Cymraeg ac ysgolion Saesneg? A ydych chi’n gwahaniaethu’r cyllidebau rhwng y Gymraeg a Saesneg yn Llywodraeth Cymru? Yn fy marn i, dylem ni weithredu fel corff dwyieithog fel Llywodraeth a dylai’r awdurdodau lleol, er enghraifft, weithredu yn y ddwy iaith ac adlewyrchu sefyllfa ieithyddol yr ardal maen nhw’n ei chynrychioli. So, mae’n mynd i fod yn wahanol yng Nghastell-nedd, efallai, i’r hyn fuasai hi ym Mlaenau Gwent. Rydw i’n gweld pwrpas a phwynt beth sydd wedi cael ei wneud gan Wlad y Basg, ond nid wyf i’n credu bod y gymhariaeth yn un sydd really yn gymhariaeth deg iawn.


Alun Davies: I am aware of the calls that you mention. Can I say this: we’re talking about the Basque Country, essentially, aren’t we, when we’re discussing these issues? I understand the comparison that’s been drawn. In the Basque Country, they count the money in a very different way to us. For example, in the Basque Country, they would count S4C’s funding as part of that 1 per cent—we don’t. They count the salaries of civil servants, and we don’t. So, when you look at the expenditure on the Welsh language across the Welsh Government and across the UK Government in terms of S4C and the BBC, you will see that there is increasing expenditure. Do we want to try and account for that? I’m not sure how that would actually enhance our discussions. How do you add the money spent on Welsh-medium schools and English-medium schools? Do you differentiate between the budgets in terms of spend on English and Welsh in the Welsh Government? In my view, we should operate as a bilingual organisation as a Government, and local authorities, for example, should operate through the media of both languages in a way that reflects the linguistic position in the areas that they represent. So, it will be different in Neath to what the situation would be in Blaenau Gwent, for example. I do see the purpose and the point of what is done in the Basque Country, but I don’t think that the comparison is one that is particularly fair.

[379]   Jeremy Miles: Diolch.


Jeremy Miles: Thank you.

[380]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Rydym ni’n mynd nôl at addysg ar hyn o bryd, ac addysg i oedolion. Mae Dawn Bowden eisiau gofyn cwestiynau am hynny.


Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. We’re going back now to education, and education for adults. Dawn Bowden wants to ask a question on that.

[381]   Dawn Bowden: Thank you, Chair. I think you’ve covered some of it in your answers earlier on in terms of how the budget might be used to promote the Welsh language, particularly in education in schools. I want to move to Welsh education for adults, and I’m thinking of the practicalities as well as the budget. As I understand it, there’s been an additional £4.85 million that’s going to be allocated directly for Welsh for adults within the budget. I’m just trying to work through the practicalities of this. As I understand it, we currently have in Wales about 11 per cent of the population who consider themselves to be fluent Welsh speakers. We’ve got about 23 per cent who say they speak some Welsh. To get to 1 million, that takes us up to about 35 per cent of the population. Obviously, I’m assuming that we don’t—or are we saying that we’re not necessarily looking at 1 million fluent Welsh speakers? I think if I were learning Welsh to my dying day, I wouldn’t get it like Dai, but I would like to think I was at a point where I could converse with somebody. So, 2050 is 33 years away. A lot of those additional Welsh speakers will obviously come through the school system, but only one in 20 adults are currently actively learning to speak Welsh—


[382]   Neil Hamilton: One hundred and twenty.


[383]   Dawn Bowden: Sorry?


[384]   Neil Hamilton: One in 120.


[385]   Dawn Bowden: One hundred and twenty, sorry, yes. If it was one in 20, we’d be all right, wouldn’t we? One in 120 is learning to speak Welsh. So, what is going to be the focus, really, of this extra £4.85 million in terms of how we increase that one in 120 to 1 in 50 or one in whatever it is, because it’s clearly the adult learners who are going to contribute to the 1 million Welsh speakers? Do you have any thoughts about how you are going to specifically target adult Welsh learners to contribute to the objective?


[386]   Alun Davies: I’ll say right at the beginning, Dawn, that I’m not sure I recognise some of the figures you quoted at the beginning of your question, and they don’t, certainly, correspond with the figures that we have available to us. But let me say this: in terms of reaching 1 million speakers, we are clear about reaching 1 million people who are able to speak Welsh, not simply 1 million people who are able to sing the national anthem and say ‘Shwmae’ or ‘Diolch yn fawr’. We are clear about—


[387]   Bethan Jenkins: You’d get above 1 million, I would think. I would hope so. [Laughter.]


[388]   Alun Davies: We want 1 million people to be able to speak Welsh clearly and confidently every day. So, that is a very clear ambition of ours. And, also, not simply to speak Welsh, but to be able to use Welsh. We’re not simply saying that we want people to be able to speak only the very basics in a very broken way. We want people to be able to feel comfortable using and speaking Welsh and that’s a very clear objective. And the points you make about Welsh for adults are well made, and I agree with you about that. We have, of course, established a scrutiny committee to look at the work of the centre for Welsh for adults, and we will be looking at how that works, and we will be ensuring that it is subject to external scrutiny, so that it is achieving the objectives that have been set for it. And we’ll be doing that very clearly.


[389]   But, we are at the moment, as I said in answer to a question earlier from Dai Lloyd, looking at how we develop the additional funding that we have, together with the existing funding streams, to put together a programme for expanding and developing the Welsh language education available to adults. And I think the point that Jeremy made earlier about the comparisons with the Basque Country, for example, are best made in this field, where, in the Basque Country, they have a far better means of teaching Welsh to adults—teaching Basque to adults—[Laughter.]


[390]   Dawn Bowden: We’ll all move to the Basque Country. [Laughter.]


[391]   Alun Davies: That would be something to worry about. So, they have a far better developed teaching Basque to adults programme than we have in Wales of a teaching Welsh to adults programme, and I think, if we’re looking for those international comparisons, I think that is one where I would certainly look towards learning lessons from. But we are looking towards, initially—. We know that there are a number of people in Wales who speak a level of Welsh, but are not confident in speaking Welsh, but who have a knowledge of Welsh, and for whom it would be easier to reach a conversational standard than it would be for others. We know that in our own daily lives here in the Assembly and elsewhere. So, we’ll be looking at initial focus on people who could, with some help, become Welsh speakers reasonably easily or quickly, and then through the education system, creating new Welsh speakers amongst children and young people. So, those are the lessons that we need to learn.


[392]   Dawn Bowden: Okay. Thank you.


[393]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Ac mae gan Suzy Davies—


Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. And Suzy Davies has—

[394]   Neil Hamilton: Can I just make a point?


[395]   Bethan Jenkins: Ar hwn?


Bethan Jenkins: On this?

[396]   Neil Hamilton: Following on from what Dawn said, I did Any Questions? from Llangollen the other day with Liz Saville-Roberts, and she said something that I thought was very interesting. She said that if we’re to succeed in this objective, which everybody wants to do, we have to make it fun, learning and using Welsh. Is that at the forefront of your mind in achieving your objectives?


[397]   Bethan Jenkins: [Inaudible.]


[398]   Alun Davies: I can see that I could be tempted into some terrible trouble here, couldn’t I? [Laughter.] People want to enjoy their lives, and if we spend vast sums of money trying to preach the importance of various modes of mutation, then we’re not going to grab people’s attention and make people feel comfortable. And I would prefer somebody to be speaking Welsh confidently and happily, even if that Welsh sometimes broke the heart of the Archdruid. And, so, I think we need to be confident that we can speak and enjoy the Welsh language without necessarily believing that we need to make it a drain on people’s spirit and soul.


[399]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Suzy Davies.


[400]   Suzy Davies: Just on a point of clarification really, the £4.85 million that’s going to the development of Welsh for adults, how much of that is set-up costs and ongoing administrative costs of the new agency and the buildings it’s developing? I just want to know how much is actually left for on-the-ground work.


[401]   Alun Davies: I think I’d have to write to the committee with a detailed answer to that. In terms of where we are at the moment, the centre is established and is running. That’s already being funded, of course, out of existing and previous budgets, and the detail here and what we’re looking at now is how we develop that and develop new courses and new opportunities and new resources. So, the focus here is not on recurrent running costs but actual costs of running programmes and running courses.


[402]   Suzy Davies: Just to give us a sense of balance, perhaps you could include the KPIs you will have on seeing whether the new centre’s achieving what you expect it to achieve.


[403]   Alun Davies: I’ll bring in Bethan in a moment, but I think you’re absolutely right about that because what we need to do, and this comes back to a question that Dawn asked earlier, is: how do we ensure that we’re meeting our objectives and meeting our ambitions? One of the conversations I think I had with the committee at an earlier appearance was about setting targets. I think the committee was very clear that the committee expects there to be very clear targets and immediate targets as well—coming back here and answering these questions in 33 years would not be a sufficient answer to the committee’s inquiries, and I accept that. So, we will be looking at setting performance indicators. We will also be looking at setting early targets. Many of those targets, of course, in early years—in the early years of the strategy, I should say—will be about inputs into the system rather than outputs. I hope the committee will accept that. But, in terms of performance indicators for the centre, we need to ensure that they are set out, that they are public. We have the scrutiny committee that looks at the work of the centre as well. So, we do have a structure of governance and of accountability, which I hope will provide both transparency but also create confidence in what it’s doing.


[404]   Suzy Davies: A timeline on that would be quite helpful because we’ll be seeing you again, I’m sure.


[405]   Alun Davies: Bethan, do you want to—?


[406]   Ms Webb: [Inaudible.]


[407]   Alun Davies: Nothing to add. Okay.


[408]   Bethan Jenkins: We come to Dai Lloyd.


[409]   Dai Lloyd: O, grêt. Yn nhermau addysg i oedolion yn fwy cyffredinol, hynny yw, addysg trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg i oedolion ym mha bynnag bwnc, ‘Ife chi ydy’r Gweinidog?’ ydy’r cwestiwn cyntaf yn dilyn fy nghwestiwn cynharaf. Mae yna adroddiadau bod y cyfraniad yn gallu bod yn eithaf pitw yn ariannol. A oes yna le, efallai, yn rhywle i gynyddu’r ddarpariaeth o addysg i oedolion ym mhob maes, lle bynnag y mae rhywun eisiau dysgu rhywbeth fel oedolyn trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg?


Dai Lloyd: Oh, great. In terms of education for adults more generally, that is, Welsh-medium education for adults in whatever subject, 'Are you the Minister?' is the first question following my previous question. There are reports that this can be quite pitiful in financial terms. Is there scope here to increase provision for education for adults in every area, if adults want to learn through the medium of Welsh?

[410]   Alun Davies: Dyna ran o gylch gwaith y gweithgor sydd wedi cael ei sefydlu gan Kirsty Williams. Mi fyddaf i’n gyfrifol am rywfaint o hynny; bydd Julie James hefyd yn gyfrifol am hynny. Ond rydym ni yn ystyried sut rydym ni’n gallu sicrhau dyfodol addysg i oedolion yn Gymraeg ac yn Saesneg achos rydym ni’n gwybod, yn ystod y blynyddoedd diwethaf, ein bod wedi gweld toriadau yn y gyllideb.


Alun Davies: That will be part of the remit of the working group that’s been established by Kirsty Williams. I will be responsible for some of that, as will Julie James. But we are considering how we can secure the future for adult education through the medium of Welsh and English because we know that, over the past few years, we have seen cuts in the budget.


[411]   Dai Lloyd: Iawn. Ocê.


Dai Lloyd: Right. Okay.

[412]   Bethan Jenkins: Bydd yn rhaid inni gael cyfle i ddarllen y datganiad. Nid ydym ni wedi cael lot o amser ar hyn o bryd i weld yn sicr ei fod yn mynd i fynd i’r afael ag addysg i oedolion ar draws y cyfryngau, fel mae Dai Lloyd wedi ei ddweud. Rwy’n credu mai’r cwestiwn arall ar addysg i fi yw: rydym ni wedi cael tystiolaeth i mewn yn dweud bod diffyg prentisiaethau trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg a bod yr ystadegau’n isel o ran yr hyn sy’n cael ei ddarparu gan Lywodraeth Cymru trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg—pa waith fyddwch chi yn ei wneud i sicrhau bod hynny’n newid nawr gyda’r arian ychwanegol sydd yn mynd mewn i’r Gymraeg?


Bethan Jenkins: We’ll have to have an opportunity to read the statement. We haven’t had much time thus far to see that it is going to tackle education for adults across the piece, as Dai Lloyd has said. I think the other question on education for me is: we’ve had evidence of a lack of Welsh-medium apprenticeships and that the statistics are very low in terms of what’s provided by the Welsh Government through the medium of Welsh—what work will you do to ensure that that changes with the additional money that’s going into the Welsh language?


[413]   Alun Davies: Mae hynny’n hollol gywir. Mae’r ffigurau’n isel iawn, ac rydym ni eisiau gweld sut y gallwn gynyddu'r niferoedd, ac mae hynny’n rhan o gylch gwaith y gweithgor yma a bydd yn rhan o’m blaenoriaethau i ar gyfer y blynyddoedd nesaf.


Alun Davies: That’s entirely right. The figures are very low, and we do want to consider how we can increase the numbers, and that’s part of the remit of this working group and one of my priorities for the next few years.


[414]   Bethan Jenkins: Felly, mae hynny yng nghylch gwaith y grŵp llywio sy’n mynd i gael ei gadeirio gan Delyth Evans.


Bethan Jenkins: So, that’s part of the remit of the steering group that’s going to be chaired by Delyth Evans.


[415]   Alun Davies: Mae’n rhan o hynny. Sut rydym ni’n datblygu addysg Gymraeg yn y sector addysg bellach, dyna’r prif destun trafod, ond hefyd sut rydym ni’n sicrhau bod prentisiaethau ar gael yn y Gymraeg. Er enghraifft, roeddwn i yn Sir Fôn pythefnos yn ôl yn siarad gyda Horizon a chyngor Môn amboutu sut rydym ni’n gallu sicrhau bod yna gyrsiau a chyfleoedd ar gael trwy gyfrwng y Gymraeg ar gyfer pobl efallai fydd eisiau gweithio yn Wylfa Newydd, a sut ydym ni’n sicrhau bod yna gyfleoedd i bobl, i sicrhau bod lle i’r Gymraeg pan fo gen ti brosiect mor fawr yn digwydd yn rhan o’r gymuned Gymraeg.


Alun Davies: It is part of that. Looking at how we develop Welsh-medium education in the FE sector, that’s the main topic, but also how we ensure that apprenticeships are available through the medium of Welsh. For example, I was on Anglesey a fortnight ago and I spoke to Horizon and Anglesey council in terms of how we can ensure that there are courses and opportunities available through the medium of Welsh for people who may want to work on the Wylfa Newydd project, and how we ensure that those opportunities exist, so that there is room for the Welsh language when you do have such a major project taking place in part of the Welsh-speaking community.


[416]   Bethan Jenkins: Felly, nid oes dim byd sydd yn mynd i fod yn digwydd yn sgil y gyllideb yn weithredol, felly. Mae grŵp yn mynd i fod yn trafod hyn, ond nid oes dim byd newydd yn mynd i ddigwydd o ran y nifer o brentisiaethau, dim ond trafodaethau.


Bethan Jenkins: So, there’s nothing that’s going to be happening in the wake of the budget that’s operational. There is going to be a group discussing this, but there’s nothing new that’s going to happen in terms of the number of apprenticeships; these are just discussions.


[417]   Alun Davies: Rydym ni wedi penderfynu mi fyddwn ni yn ystyried y sefyllfa yn ystod y flwyddyn yma—dyna’r datganiad yn yr Eisteddfod—ac wedi hynny fe fyddwn yn gweithredu ar sail hynny. Ond nid yw’n wir i ddweud nad oes dim byd yn mynd i ddigwydd am flwyddyn arall, oherwydd, fel roeddwn i wedi’i ddweud, rwy’n credu, mewn ateb i Lee Waters, rŷm ni yn ystyried ac rŷm ni’n mynd i edrych ar, fel rhan o’r trafodaethau yn ystod y mis yma, sut rydym ni’n mynd i ehangu cyrsiau Cymraeg i ddatblygu’r gweithlu. Mi fydd hynny yn helpu ac yn datblygu darpariaeth yn y Gymraeg yn y gweithle, ac mi fyddwn ni’n gobeithio gwneud hynny yn ystod y flwyddyn nesaf.


Alun Davies: We have decided that we will consider these issues over this year—that was the statement made in the National Eisteddfod—and then we will take action on the basis of that. But it’s not true to say that nothing is going to happen for another year, because, as I mentioned, I think, in response to a question from Lee Waters, we are considering and we are going to look at, as part of the discussions that we’re going to have over this month, how we’re going to enhance Welsh courses to develop the workforce. That will help to develop Welsh-medium provision in the workplace, and we hope to do that during this next year.



[418]   Bethan Jenkins: Diolch. Mae yna gwestiynau gyda ni ynglŷn â’r comisiynydd iaith ac mae Dai Lloyd eisiau arwain ar hynny. Diolch.


Bethan Jenkins: Thank you. We have questions now about the Welsh Language Commissioner and Dai Lloyd wants to lead on that.

[419]   Dai Lloyd: Diolch, Gadeirydd. Yn fras, wrth gwrs, rŷm ni i gyd yn gwybod am y pwysau cyllidebol yn y cefndir ar Gomisiynydd y Gymraeg, fel pawb arall, ac, wrth gwrs rŷm ni’n ymwybodol—yn y brîff gerbron—am neilltuo gwahanol symiau o arian dros y blynyddoedd i alluogi Comisiynydd y Gymraeg i wneud ei gwaith, yn sylfaenol, o ran gofynion rhoi Mesur y Gymraeg (Cymru) 2011 ar waith. A alwch chi olrhain beth sy’n debygol o ddigwydd yn fanna wrth fynd ymlaen?


Dai Lloyd: Thank you, Chair. Broadly speaking, of course, we all know about the financial pressures in the background on the Welsh Language Commissioner, like everyone else, and, of course, we’re aware—from the brief—about the earmarking of different sums of money to enable the Welsh Language Commissioner to do her work, basically, in terms of the requirements of implementing the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure 2011. Could you set out what’s going to happen there as we move forward?


[420]   Alun Davies: Rwy’n cyfarfod y comisiynydd yn rheolaidd, fel y buasai pobl yn ei ddisgwyl. Rwy’n gwybod bod y Cadeirydd yn lansio digwyddiad gyda hi amser cinio heddiw. Ar hyn o bryd, rwy’n mynd drwy’r broses o gynnig y safonau gerbron y Cynulliad a’r safonau addysg ydy’r safonau nesaf. Mae’r comisiynydd iaith wedi cael ychwanegiad i’w chyllideb hi y llynedd i sicrhau ei bod hi’n gallu gwneud y gwaith y mae’n rhaid iddi ei wneud ar hyn o bryd. Rwy’n hapus iawn gyda’r sefyllfa bresennol. Nid wyf yn siŵr a oes gen i lot i’w ychwanegu at beth rwyf wedi’i ddweud yn barod.


Alun Davies: I meet the commissioner regularly, as you would expect. I know that the Chair will be launching an event with her at lunchtime today. At the moment, I am going through the process of putting the standards before the Assembly and the education standards are the next round of standards. The Welsh Language Commissioner’s seen an addition to her budget last year to ensure that she is able to carry out her current responsibilities and I’m very content with the current situation. I’m not sure if I’ve much to add to what I’ve already said.

[421]   Bethan Jenkins: Ar ba sail ydych chi’n hapus gyda’r sefyllfa bresennol? Oherwydd, yn amlwg, roedd y £150,000 wedi mynd i mewn i’r gyllideb i helpu gyda’r safonau ond mae yn dal lot o waith i’w wneud i sicrhau bod y safonau hynny yn digwydd ac mae yna doriadau wedi bod yn y cyfamser. Sut ydych chi’n gallu bod yn hyderus bod y comisiynydd yn mynd i allu gwneud ei gwaith yn effeithiol o dan y sefyllfa yma?


Bethan Jenkins: On what basis are you content with the current situation? Because, obviously, the £150,000 had gone into the budget to help with the standards but there is still a lot of work to be done to ensure that those standards do happen and there have been cuts in the meantime. How can you be confident that the commissioner is going to be able to do her work effectively in this situation?

[422]   Alun Davies: Nid oes gen i ddim rheswm i beidio â bod yn hyderus. Mae’r comisiynydd wedi gwneud cais am arian ychwanegol a chafodd hi’r arian ychwanegol ac nid ydym ni wedi cael cais arall am arian ychwanegol. Felly, rwy’n hyderus bod y gyllideb ar gyfer y comisiynydd yn ddigonol ar gyfer y swydd.


Alun Davies: I have no reason not to be confident. The commissioner has made a bid for additional funds and she received those funds and we’ve received no further bids. So, I am confident that the budget for the commissioner is sufficient.

[423]   Bethan Jenkins: Lee Waters.


[424]   Lee Waters: I’m just trying to understand why we’ve set up a commissioner when, over four years, the budget’s been reduced by 25 per cent—meanwhile we’re setting up new institutions. Is there a judgment about the value of the process we’ve set up and investing in it to achieve it, and, if so, why are we reducing that budget and, as I say, at the same time creating new things?


[425]   Alun Davies: The National Assembly for Wales determined that that would be the decision that we took. We took that decision and that was the policy at the time. Now, I’ve been very clear—I hope I’ve been clear with the committee and during the consultation process that, in my mind, I want to see us having a debate about the policy and vision for the Welsh language and how the Welsh Government delivers on that, and I want that policy and vision conversation to take place before we have that conversation on the law and legislative and statutory structures.


[426]   Now, we are coming to the end, if you like, of a formal consultation process—that ended on Monday. We’re going to continue to have conversations as we develop and deliver the new strategy at the end of March of next year, and we will do that. And we will do that. We will then need to have a conversation about the sort of statutory framework that we require and that is where exactly the point that you’re making, Lee, will be important—what structures do we need, what powers do we need, where do we need the law to sit, where do we need the statutory interventions and where do we need voluntary and non-statutory interventions? That will be the conversation that we need to have over the spring and summer of next year.


[427]   Now, in my mind, I’ve been very clear in trying to say that we either amend the existing Welsh Language Measure or we introduce a Welsh language Bill. I’ve written to the First Minister asking for a space in the legislative programme for both of those different options, but I think it’s important that we take a decision on which option we follow on the basis of the conversation that we have. So, I have not taken any decision on that yet, but I will inform the committee when a decision is taken. But, at the moment, we have the statutory framework that we’ve all inherited from, I think, the 2007 Assembly. I’m looking at you, Dai, remembering a conversation we had at the time. We do need to revisit that. I think it’s right and proper we revisit it, but let’s revisit it in light of the new strategy rather than before we do that.


[428]   Bethan Jenkins: Suzy Davies and then Neil Hamilton.


[429]   Suzy Davies: Okay. Just to come back to the budget for a moment, if you look across the lifetime of the work of the commissioner, it’s obviously got a trajectory. It begins at the start, with its investigations and all that preparatory work, and at the end it’s primarily about implementing standards, but in the middle there is the preparatory work and the implementation work going on at the same time, and actually the fact that £150,000 additional were needed for the commissioner to do her work in this last year demonstrates that. I don’t understand, then, why we’re not seeing more money coming into the budget at this stage in the lifetime of the commissioner rather than a cut, albeit this year a modest cut. I can see it being lower at either end, but it needs more in the middle.


[430]   Alun Davies: That’s a fair point to make. I don’t disagree with you on the general point that you make there, and I think we should all pay tribute to the work of the commissioner and her staff in the work that they’ve done in delivering exactly the programme of work that you’ve described. The budget is what it is. I haven’t received a request for an increase in that budget, and I’m content that the commissioner has the resources available to her in order to deliver on her responsibilities.


[431]   Suzy Davies: And that’s literally because she just didn’t ask you for more money.


[432]   Alun Davies: You know, I think we need to look at how we spend money on the Welsh language and in terms of the balance between promotion, support, encouragement, education and regulation. Now, you might look at the balance of that and say the balance is actually wrong, that we spend too much on regulation and we need to spend more on promotion. You might feel that we spend too much on education, and we should spend more on regulation. That would be a conclusion that you or others may reach. At the moment, I feel that we’ve got the balance in reasonably the right place, but I’m looking forward, if you like, to having a conversation and discussion in the spring and summer of next year as to what statutory interventions we will need in the future. I think when we have that conversation it would be a good and proper time to have a conversation about the resources, and the balance of resources, that we would place on different forms of intervention.


[433]   Suzy Davies: Okay. Thanks.


[434]   Bethan Jenkins: Neil Hamilton.


[435]   Neil Hamilton: Well, it’s inevitable that, if somebody suffers a significant cut in budget, they’re going to scream and holler about it and always say that there isn’t enough money to do what we would really like to do. I fully understand that. But the Welsh Language Commissioner has been quite dramatic in the language that she’s used about recent cuts, even taking into account the increase of £150,000 in the budget following her last application. She did say that the next two years would be incredibly important in terms of implementing the Welsh Language (Wales) Measure, and about 250 bodies are being brought under the system in that period. I mean, that’s a very significant number of events that are in prospect, which have to be monitored and nurtured. Although you’ve expressed great confidence that the budget is significant, it may well be that the Welsh Language Commissioner feels that, having just been given an extra £150,000, she’s not going to get any more, so therefore there’s no point asking the question.


[436]   Alun Davies: She might feel like that. Look, in terms of where we are, the programme is what it is, and the programme of regulation and the implementation of regulation is one that will take place over time. Clearly, not all the resources will be expended in terms of regulation, but I would hope that the balance, if you like, of funding for Welsh language interventions would be from other bodies—the number of bodies that will be delivering Welsh language policies—and would be spent on promoting and developing the use of the Welsh language and the delivery of Welsh language services. That’s where I want to see the money spent, rather than just on regulation. So, if we believe that we do need additional funding for the commissioner’s office in the next, say, 18-month period, then I’m quite happy to have that conversation. I don’t have a difficulty with having that conversation. But I think the key point in terms of overall budget strategy and our approach to the balance of funding in different budget lines is that I want to see the bulk of funding out there supporting the use and the learning of the Welsh language rather than here on the regulation of the use of the Welsh language. That’s where my priorities lie.


[437]   Neil Hamilton: Well, I would generally support that objective.


[438]   Bethan Jenkins: A oes modd i mi ofyn cwestiwn ychwanegol ynglŷn â sut y byddwch yn cyflawni blaenoriaethau ac ymrwymiadau o ran y Gymraeg a’r canlyniadau sy’n gysylltiedig â hyn o ran yr asesiad effaith integredig strategol sydd yn y ddogfen naratif o fewn cyllideb drafft Llywodraeth Cymru? Nid yw’n fanwl iawn a byddem yn hoffi cael rhywbeth mwy manwl yn hynny o beth.


Bethan Jenkins: Could I ask an additional question about how you will deliver on the priorities and commitments in relation to the Welsh language and the outcomes related to this in terms of the integrated strategic impact assessment in the narrative of the Welsh Government's draft budget? It is not very detailed and we would like to have something more detailed on that.


[439]   Alun Davies: Os ydych chi eisiau manylion ychwanegol, rwy’n hapus iawn i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor i wneud hynny. Ar hyn o bryd, mae gennym ni gyllideb gryf a fydd yn ein galluogi i ddylifro ar ein hamcanion ni. Rwy’n hapus iawn gyda hynny. Rwy’n meddwl bod gennym ni benderfyniadau i’w gwneud yn ystod cyfnod y mis nesaf, cyn bod y gyllideb yn mynd i’r Cynulliad, ac mae gennym ni benderfyniadau i’w gwneud yn sgil y drafodaeth ehangach ar y strategaeth. Rwy’n gwerthfawrogi, a buaswn i yn gwerthfawrogi, cyfraniad y pwyllgor at drafodaethau felly, ond os ydych chi eisiau mwy o fanylion manwl iawn, rwy’n hapus iawn i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor heddiw neu’r wythnos nesaf.


Alun Davies: If you want additional details, then I’m more than happy to write to the committee, setting those details out. At the moment, we have a robust budget that will enable us to deliver on our objectives. I am very content with that. I do believe that we have some decisions to take over the next month, before the final budget is put before the Assembly, and we have some decisions to make in light of the broader discussions on the strategy. I appreciate, and I would appreciate, the contribution of this committee to those discussions, but if you want more details then I’m more than happy to write to the Committee today or next week.

[440]   Bethan Jenkins: Rwy’n credu mai’r prif beth i ni yw’r ffaith, gyda’r strategaeth newydd, bod yna amcanion clir a ffyrdd i ni allu asesu datblygiadau yn y maes o greu miliwn o siaradwyr Cymraeg erbyn 2050—beth yw’r targedau interim a sut rydych yn cyrraedd y targedau hynny. Achos mae’n darged mawr yn hynny o beth. Ac i sicrhau hefyd bod—i geisio deall a ydych yn meddwl bod y gyllideb sydd wedi ei ddyrannu’n barod, heb i’r strategaeth gael ei phenderfynu, yn rhywbeth sydd yn iawn, neu, unwaith i chi benderfynu beth yw’r polisi, wedi i’r strategaeth gael ei ymgynghori arni, bod angen neu newid siâp y gyllideb, ble mae’r arian yn mynd, a sut mae’n cael ei ddylifro, achos nid yw hynny’n glir eto oherwydd y ffaith bod yr ymgynghoriad newydd orffen.


Bethan Jenkins: I think the main thing for us is the fact that, with the new strategy, there are clear objectives and that there are ways that we can assess developments in the area of creating a million Welsh speakers by 2050—what the interim targets are and how you deliver on those targets. Because it is a major target in that sense. We are trying to understand whether you think that the budget that has already been allocated, without the strategy having been decided, is correct, or, once you have decided what the policy is, following the consultation on the strategy, whether you think you will need to expand or change the shape of the budget and consider where the money goes and how it is delivered, because it is not clear yet because of the fact that the consultation has just finished.


[441]   Alun Davies: Absolutely. Os oes newidiadau, mi fyddaf i’n ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor yn amlinellu’r math o newidiadau rydym yn eu gwneud i’r gyllideb. Os ydym yn gwneud, neu’n cynnig gwneud, unrhyw newidiadau, rwy’n hapus iawn i ysgrifennu at y pwyllgor i wneud hynny. Buaswn yn hapus iawn hefyd i’r pwyllgor ysgrifennu ataf fi i drafod y math o dargedau ac amcanion y byddai’r pwyllgor yn meddwl byddai’n addas ar gyfer y strategaeth newydd.


Alun Davies: Absolutely. If there are any changes, I will write to the committee outlining those changes that we make to the budget. If we are to make or propose any changes, I am more than happy to write to the committee in those circumstances. I would also be more than happy if the committee wish to write to me, discussing the types of targets and objectives that the committee would believe to be appropriate for the new strategy.

[442]   Bethan Jenkins: A oes unrhyw gwestiynau ychwanegol? Na. Grêt. Diolch yn fawr iawn am eich amser yma heddiw, Weinidog, a byddwn yn siŵr o drafod ymhellach y mater pwysig yma.


Bethan Jenkins: Are there any further questions? No. Great. Thank you very much for your time today, Minister, and I’m sure we’ll have further discussions on this important issue.



Papurau i’w Nodi

Papers to Note


[443]   Bethan Jenkins: Rydym ni’n symud ymlaen at eitem 5, sef papurau i’w nodi. Fel arfer, rwy’n mynd trwy’r papurau, fesul un, ond nid wyf yn mynd i wneud hynny heddiw oherwydd rydym wedi cael 15 papur—llythyrau ynglŷn â Cymru Hanesyddol—felly nid wyf am fynd rhagddo yn rhy hwyr. Papur 1 yw’r ateb gan Weinidog y Gymraeg a Dysgu Gydol Oes ar y craffu. Rydych yn gweld y llythyrau eraill sydd wedi dod atom.


Bethan Jenkins: We will now move on to item 5, namely papers to note. Usually, I go through the papers, but I’m not going to do that today because we’ve had 15 papers—letters about Historic Wales—so, I don’t want to go beyond our time. Paper 1 is a response from the Minister for Lifelong Learning and Welsh Language on the scrutiny. You can see the other letters that we’ve had.

Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod

Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public from the Remainder of the Meeting





bod y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).


that the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).


Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.


[444]   Bethan Jenkins: Os nad oes dim sylwadau eraill gan Aelodau, rydym yn symud at eitem 6 a’r cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i wahardd y cyhoedd o’r cyfarfod ar gyfer eitem 7. Diolch yn fawr.


Bethan Jenkins: If there are no further comments from Members, we’ll move on to item 6, the motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting, for item 7. Thank you very much.


Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.


Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 11:59.
The public part of the meeting ended at 11:59.