Aelodau’r pwyllgor yn bresennol
Committee members
in attendance
|
Peter Black
|
Democratiaid Rhyddfrydol Cymru Welsh Liberal
Democrats
|
Christine Chapman
|
Llafur
(Cadeirydd y Pwyllgor) Labour (Committee
Chair)
|
Alun Davies
|
Llafur
Labour
|
John Griffiths
|
Llafur
(yn dirprwyo ar ran Gwenda Thomas) Labour (substitute
for Gwenda Thomas)
|
Mike Hedges
|
Llafur Labour
|
Mark Isherwood
|
Ceidwadwyr Cymreig Welsh
Conservatives
|
Bethan Jenkins
|
Plaid Cymru The Party of
Wales
|
Gwyn R. Price
|
Llafur Labour
|
Eraill yn bresennol Others in
attendance
|
Chris
Gittins
|
Pennaeth Yr Uned
Chynhwysiant Ariannol, Llywodraeth Cymru
Head of Financial Inclusion Unit, Welsh Government
|
Lesley
Griffiths
|
Aelod Cynulliad,
Llafur (y Gweinidog Cymunedau a Threchu Tlodi)
Assembly Member, Labour (Minister for Communities and Tackling
Poverty)
|
Maureen
Howell
|
Dirprwy
Gyfarwyddwr, Threchu Tlodi, Llywodraeth Cymru
Deputy Director, Tackling Poverty, Welsh Government
|
Eleanor
Marks
|
Cyfarwyddwr,
Cymunedau a Threchu Tlodi, Llywodraeth Cymru
Director, Communities and Tackling Poverty, Welsh
Government
|
Swyddogion Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru yn
bresennol National Assembly
for Wales officials in attendance
|
Jonathan
Baxter
|
Y Gwasanaeth
Ymchwil
Research Service
|
Sarah
Beasley
|
Clerc
Clerk
|
Sarah
Sargent
|
Dirprwy
Glerc
Deputy Clerk
|
Robin
Wilkinson
|
Y Gwasanaeth
Ymchwil
Research Service
|
Dechreuodd y
cyfarfod am 09:02.
The meeting began at 09:02.
|
Cyflwyniad, Ymddiheuriadau a
Dirprwyon
Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions
|
[1]
Christine
Chapman: Good morning,
everyone, and welcome to the Communities, Equality and Local
Government Committee. We’ve had apologies today from Gwenda
Thomas, and John Griffiths is attending in her place. We’ve
also had apologies from Lindsay Whittle.
|
Ymchwiliad i Dlodi yng Nghymru:
Dulliau o Drechu Tlodi yn y Gymuned—y Gweinidog Cymunedau a
Threchu Tlodi
Inquiry into Poverty in Wales: Community-based Approaches to
Tackling Poverty—the Minister for Communities and Tackling
Poverty
|
[2]
Christine
Chapman: The first item
today is the inquiry into poverty in Wales. As part of the second
phase of our inquiry into poverty in Wales, we issued a call for
evidence on community-based approaches to tackling poverty, and we
did receive a number of responses to our initial call for evidence.
These were analysed and we did subsequently write to the Minister
for Communities and Tackling Poverty, asking her to address a
number of the points arising from that evidence. So, today, we have
that opportunity to explore some of those issues in more depth, and
I would like to give a very warm welcome now to our panel. So, I
would like to welcome Lesley Griffiths AM, Minister for Communities
and Tackling Poverty, and her two officials, Eleanor Marks,
director, communities and tackling poverty, and also Maureen
Howell, deputy director, tackling poverty. So, welcome to you
all.
|
[3]
Minister, I know
you have sent a paper, which Members will have carefully read, so
we will go straight into questions. You did make the comment that
the Welsh Government’s anti-poverty programmes are not
primarily place-based, but, actually, there does seem to be a view
among stakeholders that anti-poverty programmes are primarily
place-based. So, could you comment on those, please?
|
[4]
The
Minister for Communities and Tackling Poverty (Lesley
Griffiths): Yes, certainly.
Two of the major tackling poverty programmes are place-based. So,
we’ve got Communities First and Flying Start, and I suppose
that Vibrant and Viable Places, by its very nature, is place-based,
because that’s responsible for regenerating communities.
However, the other major programmes—so, Supporting People,
Families First, the pupil deprivation grant and even the community
facilities programme—are not place-based. So, that’s
what I meant by saying that they’re not primarily focused on
specific areas. Again, if you look at the investment, the two
place-based programmes are £112 million for 2016-17, along
with VVP. Then, we allocate £166 million to non-area-based
revenue programmes and the others. So, that’s what I meant by
not being primarily place-based.
|
[5]
I
think the best means of tackling poverty is having a mixture of
programmes. I think some need to be place-based and some need to be
universal, so I think having that mixture is really important, and
it’s an approach that’s been endorsed by the tackling
poverty external advisory group. I think we need to reach as many
people as possible that need support, and that’s why I think
it’s important to have that mixture.
|
[6]
Christine
Chapman: Can I pursue that?
You’ve acknowledged, then, that we have both: that it’s
universal and place based. That’s fine, but what about the
fact—? Do you feel that there is some confusion, then,
amongst stakeholders who are dealing with or trying to address the
aspects of poverty? There seems to be some confusion there. How do
you respond to that?
|
[7]
Lesley
Griffiths: It’s not
something I’ve picked up, personally, when I’ve been on
visits and talking to people. However, I accept that that’s
the conclusion that’s come from your inquiry. I think
what’s really important is that we address the points that
you’ve picked up, and I’ve made it very clear to
officials that, when they’re talking to partners and
stakeholders—and myself as well—it’s really
important that people understand the approach that we’re
taking.
|
[8]
Christine
Chapman: Okay.
Peter.
|
[9]
Peter
Black: I’m just
trying to understand what you mean by ‘place based’.
What’s your definition of ‘place
based’?
|
[10]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well,
they’re geographical programmes.
|
[11]
Peter
Black: Okay, because
Supporting People is very much based around deprived
communities.
|
[12]
Lesley
Griffiths: But it’s
available across—. It’s not just specifically
geographical areas.
|
[13]
Peter
Black: Yes. Okay, but
Communities First is place based—
|
[14]
Lesley
Griffiths: Communities First
is, and Flying Start is.
|
[15]
Peter
Black: Yes. Flying Start.
Right; but they’re your chief programmes, aren’t
they?
|
[16]
Lesley
Griffiths: They’re
what, sorry?
|
[17]
Peter
Black: Your chief
programmes—your main programmes.
|
[18]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, they’re
two of the major programmes.
|
[19]
Peter
Black: Yes. So, when
you’re saying that your programmes are not place based, the
two big ones are.
|
[20]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I said that
Flying Start and Communities First are. Supporting People, Families
First and the pupil deprivation grant aren’t.
|
[21]
Peter
Black: Okay.
|
[22]
Christine
Chapman: Okay?
|
[23]
Mike
Hedges: Can I
just—
|
[24]
Christine
Chapman: Sorry; I’ll
bring John in, and then Mike. John first, and then Mike.
|
[25]
John
Griffiths: Minister, those
figures that you’ve given us, they’re figures to spend
within your department.
|
[26]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes.
|
[27]
John
Griffiths: But I think
I’m right in saying there’s been a cross-Welsh
Government trend or objective in recent years to concentrate
certain spend in, for example, Communities First areas. Is that the
case?
|
[28]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, certainly
since I came into post, we’ve had a refresh right across
Government to the way that we look at tackling poverty. So,
we’ve made, I think, some significant changes right across
Government. So, I suppose you’re saying, ‘Are we
looking at spend from other departments?’ I’ve been
very clear that I expect other Ministers to look at the
infrastructure of Communities First, for instance, where
we’ve put significant investment over 17 years. We’ve
built up that infrastructure now. People, I think, trust
Communities First staff. You know, they’ve built up an
element of trust where—. I certainly think about my own
constituency where I have a Communities First area where people
didn’t want to send their children to school because
they’d had a really bad experience of school, and people have
gone out and worked with those parents. So, I think there is an
element of confidence-building and trust that’s there, and I
think it’s really important that other Ministers, when
looking at programmes towards tackling poverty, use that
Communities First infrastructure.
|
[29]
John
Griffiths: Yes, I think that
is the case, Chair, because I think quite a lot of outside
organisations have been given that message: that it would be
appropriate to consider the Communities First areas when
they’re taking forward a programme that seeks to tackle
poverty in Wales. Is that your—
|
[30]
Lesley
Griffiths: That’s
right, yes. One of the things we’re doing is trying to
increase employability, and that’s not just me. That’s
every Minister. So, if they can look at being able to use—.
So, some of our—and obviously, these are from within my
portfolio—Communities for Work and Lift. Now, every Minister
is contributing to the Lift programme. Their portfolio is ensuring
that there are opportunities within the Lift programme. So, I think
that’s a good example of what we’re
discussing.
|
[31]
John
Griffiths: Would it be fair
to say, then, Minister, that if you looked at it across the piece
in the way that we’ve just discussed in terms of Welsh
Government spend to tackle poverty across portfolios, and also
outside organisations that have a key role in Wales in terms of
tackling poverty, if there is an encouragement to spend and to take
forward activity in Communities First areas, then in overall terms
the effort in tackling poverty in Wales is probably more place
based than would be the case for your individual portfolio in terms
of the spend that you mentioned earlier?
|
[32]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I suppose
that if other Ministers are looking at the Communities First
infrastructure, you could certainly say that. Yes.
|
[33]
Christine
Chapman: Thanks.
Mike.
|
[34]
Mike
Hedges: Just for
clarification, when you say ‘place based’, do you mean
based on lower super output areas?
|
[35]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, as well
as—
|
[36]
Ms Marks: And geographically targeted programmes.
Communities First is certainly based on the LSOAs.
|
[37]
Mike Hedges: And Flying Start is based primarily on
that.
|
[38]
Ms Marks: Yes, it is.
|
[39]
Lesley Griffiths: And the Welsh index of multiple
deprivation.
|
[40]
Ms Marks: And WIMD, which takes accounts of that. And things
like Vibrant and Viable Places in your area—It’s not
necessarily on LSOAs, but it is geographically targeted. So, the
two main ones we’ve been talking about are certainly targeted
in that way.
|
[41]
Mike Hedges: I got an answer I didn’t expect then,
which is unusual. How do you target a geographical area if
you’re not using LSOA?
|
[42]
Ms Marks: It’s about place-based investment, and my
understanding of VVP is that they ask for bids to come in and they
assess them with an independent panel to see what they are going to
do. That kind of capital is inevitably invested in a place,
therefore it’s a place-based investment.
|
[43]
Mike Hedges: Okay.
|
[44]
Bethan Jenkins: I just want to ask a question on the
strategic outlook on this, because what always bothers me—and
has, I think, since I was first elected—is when does it
become a situation whereby place-based or poverty-based initiatives
come to an end? So, you’ve got the target of child poverty
coming to an end in 2020—that’s your aspiration. I just
want to understand whether, with some of these schemes, is it the
motivation, as with EU objective funding, to not have areas that
are applicable within these schemes, so that we move away, then,
from the necessity of having place-based schemes? Not to say that
they’re not working effectively, but when does it become a
realisation that they’re no longer necessary? Otherwise, my
concern is that we could be here in 20 years’ time saying,
‘Well, yes, we’re getting x amount of people into
employment’, but that doesn’t mean that we’re
actually lifting those people out of real-term poverty levels.
|
[45]
I speak to people in Gilfach Goch, for example, and, down the road
from the Communities First office, the community garden receives
next-to-nothing support for that particular scheme. So, how, then,
are they being utilised in terms of lifting that community out of
poverty? So, that’s my fundamental question in all of this;
it’s not about the detail of each scheme, per se, but about
your vision, as a Minister and as a Government.
|
[46]
Lesley Griffiths: You raise a very important point. You
mentioned the child poverty ambition by 2020. I launched the
revised child poverty strategy last March, and I really thought
very hard about whether we should keep that ambition in, because
it’s going to be very tough, and outside influences
aren’t helping at all. I came to the conclusion, after
looking at the consultation responses and talking to stakeholders,
that we should keep that, and I think it was the right thing to
do.
|
[47]
However, you are absolutely right. Some of these programmes—.
If you think about Communities First, for instance, it’s been
there for 17 years, and we have had a different approach towards
Communities First over the past 18 months, I would say, to have
much more of a focus on employability. I don’t think any one
programme would lift somebody out of poverty; it’s a matter
of several interventions. I don’t think we can ever say that
one intervention has lifted somebody out of poverty. So, it’s
really important that we evaluate and that we look at what the
programmes are doing.
|
[48]
Families First, I think, is a classic example, also. Families First
was never meant to be a forever programme. I think the ethos of
Families First—that team-around-the-family approach, the
multi-agency approach—is now embedded in local
authorities’ thinking going forward, or certainly, some local
authorities do it better. So—
|
[49]
Bethan Jenkins: Sorry to intervene, but I think it would
help those who are cynical—. There are people who are cynical
about certain strategies and how they affect local people, and
I’ve heard Labour Members say, ‘Well, one area’s
Communities First, another is—’. It’s for people
to understand fully and simply where you’re taking that
vision, really. I don’t think everybody does, quite
often.
|
[50]
Lesley Griffiths: I think you’re right. Mike and I
have had heated discussions about geographical areas, particularly
with Flying Start, because I know Mike’s got a street where
one side is and one side isn’t, but there is that flexibility
to reach out to people and that’s why you have to have the
mix of place-based and universal programmes, because not everybody
lives in the same street. So, you have to be able to have that
flexibility and local authorities need to have that, because they
know their local needs.
|
[51]
Christine Chapman: Thank you. Gwyn.
|
[52]
Gwyn R. Price: Just following on from talking about
flexibility, I wonder what your view is on whether the flexibility
shown by Communities First to include communities just outside
defined areas should be used more widely and extended to other
place-based programmes.
|
09:15
|
[53]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, Flying Start
is the other main place-based programme, as you say, and the
funding for that—we’ve got outreach funding within the
Flying Start programme and that can be used for children of
families who, for instance, have moved out of a Flying Start area,
because I think that’s really important. If somebody’s
moved out, the money needs to, perhaps, follow them. So,
they’ve got that flexibility there, or if we’ve got
children or families who have never lived in a Flying Start area.
So, there is that flexibility. I know there’s been some work
done with specific groups. I’m aware of some young teenage
pregnant mums. They’ve had really intensive antenatal support
within the Flying Start programme—you know, to that family.
So, there is that flexibility that we’ve seen in Communities
First in Flying Start.
|
[54]
Gwyn R.
Price: I’m sure you
are aware there are concerns from stakeholders that area-based
anti-poverty programmes mean people just outside fail to benefit
from these areas.
|
[55]
Lesley
Griffiths: Absolutely, and
that’s why we have that flexibility. Something else: over the
past six months, in particular, local authorities—or, again,
some local authorities—have been saying that it might be
better to have one pot of tackling poverty funding, rather than
having different programmes. I’m not ready to do that yet,
but—yesterday, I think it was—officials have written
out to local authorities saying that we’re going to have a
look at being more flexible. So, for instance, they'll be able to
vire up to 5 per cent with Welsh Government
approval—they’ll be able to vire funding between the
pots of money to, maybe, have a look at having much more
flexibility. So, we could start off there, and then, perhaps,
look—it’ll be for a new Government to look at whether
one pot of funding would be the way forward. So, I think we are
helping local authorities build up some flexibility.
|
[56]
Also,
Communities First, I think, since, probably, the beginning of this
term—maybe 2011 or 2012—have had the flexibility to use
funding. So, for instance, if you have a school that’s just
outside of a cluster, you know, they’ve been able to support
that school, even though it’s outside of the Communities
First area.
|
[57]
Gwyn R.
Price: I do think,
Minister, we need to look at it, because, like Mike Hedges said, I
think we’ve all got experiences of a cut-off place. I know
you’ve got to cut off somewhere, but, sometimes, some people
have more needs and they’re only just outside the area, and
the people inside, perhaps, not so much. So I’m glad
you’re looking at that. Thank you.
|
[58]
Lesley
Griffiths: Thank you,
Gwyn.
|
[59]
Christine
Chapman: Alun wants to come
in here. I just want to ask one pretty fundamental question
about—we’ve started this discussion; Bethan, I think,
raised it first of all—the holistic approach to poverty.
Obviously, we’re looking at the community-based approaches,
and Bethan’s question was whether there should be something
more radical. In our report, which we did back in June, one of the
recommendations, which, unfortunately, was turned down by Welsh
Government, was that there should be an anti-poverty alliance of
experts to really look at this in detail. Now, you say, Minister,
you have your group. I just wonder: could you say something about
that group, because we’re not sure—? That might fit the
bill, according to the recommendation, but we don’t know much
about that group, really.
|
[60]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I’ve
got several groups, I suppose, which advise on tackling poverty.
There are three main things. There’s the tackling poverty
external advisory group I mentioned, which is chaired by Professor
David Egan, whom I think most people are aware of, and has some
experts from right across the sector that meet regularly. I meet
with them regularly—I met with them just a couple of weeks
ago. They advise and I mentioned before that they supported an
approach that we’re taking.
|
[61]
Another thing I
started when I came into post was a tackling poverty practitioner
group, and that’s made up of people who are out there working
in Flying Start, in Families First—I’ve got somebody
who works in an integrated children’s centre, who has worked
on this agenda for 30-odd years. So, they meet regularly and, as I
say, I meet regularly with them too.
|
[62]
We
also changed the way the Welsh Government’s tackling poverty
implementation board was run. Basically, what that was
was—senior officials from right across Welsh Government would
meet, I think, termly. I chair that, and my predecessors have
chaired it. That was where officials came and we discussed across
Government. The first one I held when I came into post—I
didn’t think it was strong enough, so we’ve
changed that, so now every meeting that we have of that board, a
Minister comes along, and we can talk openly and frankly about what
that Minister is doing towards the tackling poverty agenda. So, at
the last one, the Minister for Economy, Science and Transport came.
It’s really important that we understand where that
department is. Huw Lewis has been. I think that Mark
Drakeford’s coming to the next one. So, I’ve got those
three groups that advise and support me on that.
|
[63]
I know
there are examples of the truth commission. There’s one in
Leeds and there’s one in Scotland. I know there are
discussions that we could possibly have one in Wales. I don’t
think it would be for Welsh Government to lead if we did have one.
I think it would be for stakeholders and the third sector to
organise, and I know officials have been talking to the third
sector about that. I don’t know if Maureen wants to say any
more about that.
|
[64]
Christine
Chapman: It’s okay,
Maureen; you don’t need to touch—.
|
[65]
Ms
Howell: There are certain
organisations that have looked at the models in Scotland and Leeds,
and they held a first meeting last month and actually brought down
representatives from Leeds to have discussions with a number of
third sector partners in terms of establishing one in Wales. I
think a couple of my team went along to that meeting, on the
understanding that we would welcome it if they want to establish
one and would use it as a mechanism to feed in the conversations
and some of the recommendations that they make to Government. So,
rather than directly running it ourselves, we would use that as a
sort of mechanism for checking our policies and taking on board any
new recommendations that they may want to make.
|
[66]
Lesley
Griffiths: The other group
that I meet with regularly is the End Child Poverty Network, which
again is made up of stakeholders who are working with children.
Also, I think the local authority tackling poverty
champions—each local authority has one, and that’s also
working very well. They meet regularly together also.
|
[67]
Christine
Chapman: Okay. Thank you. I
think generally it’s just that, sometimes, there’s a
view that it does seem very disjointed, so I welcome some of those
things. I’m sure we will return to this. I know Alun
wants—John, quickly then.
|
[68]
John
Griffiths: Just on the
commission in Leeds, and did you say Scotland?
|
[69]
Lesley
Griffiths: There’s one
in Leeds and there’s one in Scotland.
|
[70]
John
Griffiths: Has Welsh
Government then done some analysis or looked at analysis of how
those commissions are operating? Is it the Welsh Government view
that they really have added value in a significant way to tackling
poverty in those areas?
|
[71]
Ms
Howell: We’ve spoken
with our Scottish equivalents, and they have a similar relationship
with the Scottish one that we’re proposing for the Welsh one.
There has been significant collaboration between the commission in
Scotland and the Scottish Government. I wouldn’t say that
we’ve evaluated it, but we’ve taken their
recommendations on board, to the point where they’ve had
members of the commission come into Welsh Government shadowing and
vice versa, and people from Scottish Government shadowing members
of the commission to get a real understanding of what it really
means to live in poverty. The officials that we’ve spoken to
from the Scottish Government who’ve undertaken that shadowing
have said that it’s been quite beneficial to give them a
broader understanding of some of the key issues.
|
[72]
John
Griffiths: So, is it the
Welsh Government’s view that this commission should come
about in Wales?
|
[73]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I mentioned
that officials had been having early discussions with them. As I
say, I don’t think it’s for Welsh Government to lead.
But, it’s something that we could certainly help support if
stakeholders think it’s the way forward.
|
[74]
Ms
Howell: Certainly from the
Scottish Government perspective, they valued the fact that it was
an external organisation and that it was the third sector that had
established that commission, because it gave it that sort of
impartiality. They felt that it was delivering more from that
perspective than if it had been set up by the Scottish Government
themselves. So, I think we’ve communicated that to the third
sector and they are indicating that they would like to set up
something similar in Wales, and we would prefer it to go down that
route.
|
[75]
Christine
Chapman: Thanks.
Alun.
|
[76]
Alun
Davies: Thank you very
much. I’m interested, Minister, in thinking about how we
actually tackle poverty. I think that, sometimes, some of these
discussions get bogged down in the technical issues and the
minutiae of policy and the rest of it. I think you’ve been in
post now something like 18 months—is it something like
that?
|
[77]
Lesley
Griffiths: Sixteen.
|
[78]
Alun
Davies: Alright. Sixteen
months. I’m just thinking, as you reflect on the policy area,
the portfolio, the programmes and the rest of it, what do you think
works, and what do you think doesn’t work?
|
[79]
Lesley
Griffiths: That’s a
really interesting question. I came into portfolio— because
obviously, as an Assembly Member, you’re aware of all the
programmes that I’m now responsible for—. From my own
experiences, I know where I think Communities First, for instance,
does better. So, I think that around employability we’ve had
some really good success, and I still passionately believe that
employment is the route out of poverty. Although we’ve seen a
rise in in-work poverty, I still think that is absolutely the case.
That’s why you will have seen much more of a slant towards
employability and skills from Communities First over the last 16
months, and I think that had started—you know, Lift and
Communities for Work had started to be thought about—but I
have made it very clear that I think that is where we can help
people the most.
|
[80]
Flying
Start is, again, a long-term programme, and it’s taken a
while to see positive outcomes, I think, from Flying Start, and a
lot of it is anecdotal. Talking to high school headteachers who are
now seeing the first cohort of Flying Start children coming
through, to be told that you can’t tell the difference
between a child that’s had provision from Flying Start and a
child that hasn’t is really good to hear, but we need that
evaluation and we do have those robust data now—they’re
starting to come through. So, I think early years prevention and
employability are the two areas where I would want to see the
tackling poverty programmes focusing the most.
|
[81]
Alun
Davies: So, do you think
that the current spend reflects that analysis?
|
[82]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, and I think,
certainly for 2016-17, I’ve managed to protect Flying Start.
Families First has seen a reduction of about £1.4 million, I
think, in a £42-million budget, but, as I say, Families First
was never intended to be a forever programme and I think that the
team-around-the-family approach and the multi-agency approach,
which I think are really important also, are embedded. I’ve
protected Supporting People because I think it’s really
important that the people who we do support—. It helps the
health service, for instance. So, you’ve got people with
mental health issues; where would they live if we didn’t have
the Supporting People programme? Again, we’ve got the data to
show that people who access the Supporting People programme
don’t visit the GP as often and don’t visit A&E as
often.
|
[83]
Then
you’ve got Communities First where, again, they’ve had
a cash-flat settlement going into next year. But, it’s been
made very clear to them that it is a bit of a transitional year and
they need to be looking much more at focusing on employability and
skills.
|
[84]
Alun
Davies: So, what
doesn’t work?
|
[85]
Lesley
Griffiths: What doesn’t
work?
|
[86]
Alun
Davies: What isn’t
working?
|
[87]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think you have
to make sure that you don’t dilute things too much. So,
I’ll go back to Flying Start; we’ve had a huge
expansion of Flying Start this year, and we’ve managed that
very well. I’m not sure Communities First—. The
expansion—well, not—. We’ve got 52 clusters of
Communities First and 19 lead delivery bodies. I’m minded to
look at whether we need to reduce the number of clusters so that we
don’t dilute it too much.
|
[88]
Alun
Davies: Okay, so you think
dilution is an issue rather than structure and the delivery of the
programme.
|
[89]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think we have to
be careful that we don’t dilute. I think the structure of
Communities First is—. I think that infrastructure is really
important, because I’m not sure if you were here when I was
saying about building up trust and confidence with communities that
are really hard to reach. And, certainly, I’ve seen some
Communities First where—. I was speaking to one woman in
Janice Gregory’s constituency—I can’t remember
where it was—who hadn’t been out of the house for a
couple of years. So, the work that she’d done with that
Communities First person was—. It was incredible to hear of
that experience.
|
[90]
So, I
think the structure—. I’m not saying the structure is
perfect; I’m not saying there’s not more we can do, but
I think the structure is there, it’s been built up over many
years, and I don’t think we should just say, ‘Right, we
need to change the structure’. I think we need to concentrate
on perhaps lesser areas.
|
[91]
Alun
Davies: Okay. I’m
interested in what works and what doesn’t work, because if
you look back at your record, the Welsh Government’s record
isn’t especially good in reducing poverty, and it certainly
doesn’t really bear comparison with other administrations in
the United Kingdom. I accept that you use different figures to
paint different pictures. But, there must be something there that
isn’t quite working, and it would be useful, I think, for the
committee if we could understand where the ambition of the
Government would be come 5 May. We’re running to the end of
this Assembly now, and that’s five years of significant
protection for this policy area, significant investment in tackling
poverty, and a Government that has put tackling poverty at the
heart of its programme. So, how do we assess progress, do you
think, when it comes to the end of this Assembly?
|
09:30
|
[92]
Lesley
Griffiths: One of the things
that’s a priority for me, and important for me, is the number
of people that we’ve moved on into employment, because, for
me—
|
[93]
Alun
Davies: Yes, I accept
that.
|
[94]
Lesley
Griffiths: —employment
is the route out of poverty. Certainly, I was looking at some
figures the other day that were saying that if people move into
employment, 70 per cent then move out of poverty. So, I think
that’s absolutely the right way forward. So, we’ll have
the figures of how many people we’ve helped into employment,
through Lift for instance, through Communities for Work, and how
many opportunities we’ve given people to improve their
skills. We’re using the parents, childcare and employment
programme now to help people who see childcare as a barrier to
improving their skills. We’ll have all those figures, and I
think that’s the right way forward. But, I think, going
forward, we do need to look very carefully, particularly at
Communities First, and I don’t think I’ve made that a
secret at all. But, I don’t think that changing the structure
of it completely is necessarily the way forward.
|
[95]
Alun
Davies: I wish I could
persuade you, or tempt you perhaps, into possibly an
indiscretion—I don’t know. But, you’re going
almost there with Communities First, because your attitude to
Communities First is different to that of other Ministers who have
held this portfolio. But, you seem to get somewhere and then you
sort of move back a bit.
|
[96]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, no,
you’re saying, ‘Is it the structure, or is
it—?’ I mentioned dilution, and I do think dilution is
an issue. We have 52 clusters, and I’ve gone to Communities
First areas, where I’ve wondered why part of it is in that.
So, maybe we do need to narrow it. I think we need more flexibility
for instance, so I’ve spoken about flexibility. You asked me
whether I think it’s the structure, and I do think with the
structure of Communities First that there is an element of concern
there. But, I do think we’ve started to address that, and I
think the focus of Communities First on employability, for
instance, is really important. I think educational attainment is
really important, and again, on Communities First, we’ve got
figures to show the number of children whose educational attainment
has improved through their experiences of Communities
First.
|
[97]
Alun
Davies: Okay, because we
do tend to measure—
|
[98]
Christine
Chapman: Can you make this
your last question because I’ve got other Members who want to
come in?
|
[99]
Alun
Davies: Okay. We do tend
to measure what we put into the programmes in terms of cash and
resources and people and the rest of it. And then we measure what
comes out of that in terms of some of the things you said, which is
employability and the rest of it. What we don’t appear to
measure very well is the impact that those outputs have on the
community, the wider community and addressing poverty as a whole,
and I think there’s a lack of coherence there possibly in the
Government’s approach, in understanding the impact of its
actions within a wider community.
|
[100]
And
the second question—I’ll take notice of the Chair,
otherwise I’ll get in terrible trouble—is that Mrs
Howell indicated that Welsh Government officials have spoken to
colleagues in Scotland, but she said it was a means of
understanding the issues and what it means to live in poverty.
I’m interested in whether the Welsh Government proactively
looks at places, not simply in the United Kingdom—although I
accept the United Kingdom is the easiest in terms of an economic
unit—where anti-poverty work has been successful and has
actually achieved significant reductions in poverty, and to what
extent the Welsh Government proactively seeks these places, goes to
these places, learns the lessons from these places, and then
applies those lessons back in Wales.
|
[101]
Lesley
Griffiths: On your first
point, I agree with you: it is very difficult to show that one
intervention has lifted somebody out of poverty, and I absolutely
agree with you; it is really difficult. That’s why I think
having a look at how we align our programmes going forward will
help with that. In relation to your second question, I often look
to Scandinavia for policy, to how their policies are looking; I
think we can learn a lot from Scandinavia. So, I looked at
Scandinavia, and then I realised their success is probably because
they have such high taxes, so you kind of have to then look at what
we’ve got with the funding that we have. I have not gone to
many places outside of Wales to look particularly at tackling
poverty programmes. I don’t know if officials can say
anymore.
|
[102]
Ms
Howell: In terms of the
UK, we meet on a four-nation basis to discuss different policies,
and different impacts of different policies, in the four UK
countries. We’ve also, through the Young Foundation, had some
information, which we’ve shared with the Minister, around
some work that they undertook or informed in the Basque region of
Spain, which alluded to some work that’s gone on there, but
not just around poverty—actually changing communities and
community behaviour, and the broadest aspect of things as well. And
we’ve recently formalised the links between our tackling
poverty external advisory group and the Scottish group, looking at
exploring some of the mechanisms in terms of how they’ve
managed to reduce child poverty, a lot of which is linked to
higher-paid jobs, and the ability to get second earners into work.
So, very much a focus around in-work poverty, which is something
that we’re taking on board. So, we are learning from other
parts of the UK, in particular.
|
[103]
Lesley
Griffiths: Just picking up on
that, the Young Foundation is an area where—. We’ve got
the Young Foundation working with three areas now in Wales.
That’s something new—I forgot about the Basque country,
so thank you for that, Maureen—and it was following on from a
meeting I had in relation to that. So, they’re focusing on
three areas—Connah’s Quay, up in Alyn and Deeside, Port
Talbot, down in south Wales, obviously, and Aberystwyth, in west
Wales.
|
[104]
Christine
Chapman: Okay, thank you.
Peter.
|
[105]
Peter
Black: Thank you, Chair.
Alun’s mostly asked my questions, but I’ll just follow
up a couple from the replies there. Minister, you said that you
recognised getting people into work is the key way to deal with
poverty, and I think your official’s just referred to
tackling in-work poverty, which, of course, is also a key issue,
which I think the Welsh Government does need to address in the next
term, if it can. How are you changing your programmes to,
basically, support people back into work? We know about Communities
First, about building capacity, about helping people get skills, et
cetera. But there are other, more basic things—to help people
get childcare is a key one, for example, and transport. How are you
bending your programmes, and building on that, on the work
you’re doing, to make sure that those particular aspects will
help people get back into work?
|
[106]
Lesley
Griffiths: I mentioned PaCE
before.
|
[107]
Peter
Black: You
did.
|
[108]
Lesley
Griffiths: So, that’s
supporting childcare for people for whom childcare is a barrier,
particularly lone parents, and predominantly
women—
|
[109]
Peter
Black: But there are
still huge problems finding adequate childcare, all around
Wales.
|
[110]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, but PaCE is
one area where we are helping. Childcare is a big issue, and,
certainly, if we want to expand childcare, we need to work very
much with the sector, and that’s work that we’ve
undertaken, alongside the Minister for Education and Skills. I
think professionalising the childcare sector is really important,
because I don’t think people see it in a career way, and I
think we need to. I think we can learn a lot from the social care
sector, which has managed to do that. And I think you’re
right, we need to do work around that.
|
[111]
You
mentioned transport. Transport is incredibly important, and that
was one of the discussions we had when the Minister for Economy,
Science and Transport came to the tackling poverty implementation
board. Again, within the Lift programme, where we’ve been
giving people opportunities to work, we help them fund the
transport. Because, for some people, to come down from the Valleys
to Cardiff is a lot of money, to come by transport. So, we’ve
supported them with that. Again, looking at the metro, and
discussions I’ve had with the Minister, it’s really
important that there are opportunities within there to help on that
agenda.
|
[112]
So,
within the programmes we have, we are able to bend. So, you
mentioned transport. Also, within the Lift programme, for instance,
if somebody needs a suit for an interview, we could help with that.
It sounds very simple, but, for somebody, that could be a real
issue.
|
[113]
Peter
Black: Coming back to the
childcare issue, there are, I think, massive gaps in terms of
childcare. In Townhill, in Swansea, for example, there’s a
nursery in the Phoenix Centre. It’s an area with quite a lot
of deprivation, but the nursery can’t offer full-time
childcare because it’s not big enough to pass the relevant
inspections. It’s not big enough, basically, to have the
right child-carer ratio. Wherever you go around deprived
communities, the provision of affordable childcare is quite sparse.
Are you looking, for example, in the next term, at maybe putting
more money, or moving programmes, to try to tackle that particular
issue, particularly based around those areas that are deprived,
with lots of single parents, who need that childcare to get back
into work?
|
[114]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. We’ve
started that work already. Within the Vibrant and Viable Places
programme—certainly at Wrexham, for instance, I know that
they’ve opened a childcare facility from funding within that
programme. So, I think you’re right: we need to use all the
programmes to look at the provision of childcare because I think it
is a huge barrier for many people to going back into
work.
|
[115]
Peter
Black: The other thing
that struck me about your answers, particularly when you talk about
Communities First, is you’ve said that you were looking at
maybe reducing the number of, I think, delivery—
|
[116]
Lesley
Griffiths: Clusters.
|
[117]
Peter
Black: Clusters, yes. The
recent reincarnation of Communities First is much more centralised
than it was, even though local authorities do still deliver it.
Given that the Welsh Government has taken much stronger control
over the Communities First programme, how is that interacting with
work being carried out by local authorities, for example, and other
bodies? They’re doing things as well, even though they may
well be delivering the programme on your behalf. Is that joined-up
work happening there, given that you have taken much stronger
control over that particular programme?
|
[118]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. Officials
work very closely, obviously, with the lead delivery bodies.
I’m not saying I’m going to reduce the cluster;
I’m just saying that we need to look at whether, 17 years
on—
|
[119]
Peter
Black: Yes, but the
latest incarnation of Communities First is a much more centralised
approach.
|
[120]
Lesley
Griffiths: It is much more
centralised, but, in answer to your question, yes, officials work
very closely to ensure that the delivery plans, for instance, are
being delivered on, that, where there are concerns, we are able to
go in and help them if they are underperforming, or where
they’re overperforming—you know, have a look at
what’s going on. So, yes, there is a lot of work. I
don’t know if Eleanor wants to say any more
about—.
|
[121]
Ms
Marks: One of the areas
that you’ve already touched on that we’re working on is
the alignment programme between the major programmes, which,
actually, local authorities spoke to us about to say, ‘Can we
have a bit more flexibility between the programmes?’, so
we’re engaging in those discussions with them. We’re
also, in each area—Families First, Flying Start and
Communities First—in regular contact with the local
authorities and I know that they’ve been invited to a
conference on 10 February to take this discussion forward. The
letter went out yesterday. I think we’d had about 50
individuals replying by last night, wanting to come to that. The
following day is the Communities First conference, which will,
again, talk about employability, employment, much more sharing and
how it works to tackle poverty and to start to think about what a
transition year may look like.
|
[122]
Peter
Black: So, local
authorities have expressed those concerns to you then about the
alignment of their programmes with your programmes?
|
[123]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. This letter
that went out yesterday—
|
[124]
Peter
Black: So, it is an issue
for them as well.
|
[125]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. It was in
answer to—. Swansea was one of them, where they felt that
much improvement could be made in relation to commissioning, so
that’s why we’ve agreed to this.
|
[126]
Peter
Black: And, with that, I
should declare I’m a member of Swansea council, as
Swansea’s been mentioned.
|
[127]
Christine
Chapman: Okay. Mike’s
just got a supplementary on that.
|
[128]
Peter
Black: Yes, go on,
that’s fine.
|
[129]
Christine
Chapman: Have you finished
all your questions?
|
[130]
Peter
Black: Yes. I’ve
finished, yes.
|
[131]
Christine
Chapman: Okay,
Mike.
|
[132]
Mike
Hedges: Can I just say how
I see anti-poverty in Wales, and tell me if you think I’ve
got it wrong. I think the first thing is I see it in two stages:
one is trying to stop it happening in the future, therefore, we
have Flying Start, then we have the pupil deprivation grant, and we
have Communities First, working with pupils in schools to try and
improve academic attainment, because we know that unemployment is
structural and we know that the higher the level of academic
attainment, the better you’re likely to be paid. So, you have
that. And that’s going to take a number of years, from when
it starts to when it finishes, to actually start showing fruition.
It’s a bit like one of the other schemes I talk about a lot,
which is the teeth work that’s being done, where you’ve
got children brushing their teeth in school—it’s going
to take a long time for it to come through, but you’re
starting to see now a lack of fillings.
|
[133]
The
other one is on adults at the moment and that you’ve got to
try and improve their health, first of all, and you haven’t
said anything about Communities First health. Because there’s
an awful lot of work being done on improving lifestyle, getting
people to stop smoking, getting people to eat better, getting
people to exercise, so that they’re actually fit enough to go
to work. There’s a number of people, who, even if they wanted
to go to work, their level of health is such—and some of
it’s caused by lifestyle—it stops them from doing it.
So, improving their health and then getting people into
employment—. Because I think most of us believed, before we
were told it this morning, that getting people into higher-paid
employment is the best way of getting people out of poverty. I
think that’s probably one thing that very few of us, if
anybody, in this room would disagree with, but that is the aim, to
get people—. The Lift programme itself only works in
sub-regions within Communities First, doesn’t it? Is there
any intention of expanding it into other sub-regions, because I
think that what you’ve done is something that perhaps people
ought to do more, which is to drill down into some of the
Communities First areas, because they’re not all homogenous.
I have mansions in a Communities First area on Mynydd Newydd Road.
These are five-, six-bedroomed houses, probably going for
£400,000 to £500,000, but they are in a Communities First
area. I have also got people—[Interruption.]
Pardon?
|
09:45
|
[134]
Peter
Black: There’s a
lovely view of Swansea from there.
|
[135]
Christine
Chapman: Mike, we’ve
got about quarter of an hour left.
|
[136]
Mike
Hedges: It’s the
last thing I’m going to say on this. So, really, it’s
about drilling. Isn’t there more drilling down that’s
needing to be done, so that we actually not just have the lower
super output areas, which gives you an average over an area, but
you actually look at inside of it? You’ve done it with Lift,
where you’ve actually identified that Blaenymaes and Portmead
are the poorest part of the Communities First area. Should more be
done to drill down into the lower super output areas for some of
the other schemes?
|
[137]
Lesley
Griffiths: I suppose that was
what I was getting at about clusters, and, you know, you mentioned
mansions, and you’re not the only Assembly Member who’s
ever said that to me. In my own constituency, I’ve got a
Communities First area where you would say that maybe it
shouldn’t be there any longer. So, yes, I think you’re
right; we do need to look at that, and that’s what I was
alluding to before.
|
[138]
In
relation to trying to stop poverty in the first place, absolutely.
Early years intervention is so important, and it is a long-term
programme, and I do think we are now starting to see the benefits
of Flying Start, which I’ve said before.
|
[139]
You’re
absolutely right about health, and, again, Communities First, I can
tell you that we’ve got over 11,000 people who’ve got
improved academic performance. We’ve got 14,981 people
who’ve increased their physical activity, and there are, I
think, 6,000 people who eat five fruit and veg a day who
didn’t before. But I think you’re absolutely right:
Communities First needs to be working with those people to get that
health and wellbeing improved, and I think most Communities First
areas do have a ‘healthy living’ part of it. Certainly,
in my own constituency, I know of it very well.
|
[140]
So, I
think you’re right—
|
[141]
Christine
Chapman: Can I just
ask—? I’m sorry; this is such a big issue. Should we be
looking at this from another angle, though? Obviously, it’s
about getting people fit and healthy to work, but what about the
employers themselves who are perhaps not offering those highly paid
jobs? What work should be done with those, for example? Because
it’s not the sort of—. You know, the solution’s
not just going to come from the people in poverty; it’s the
other side as well.
|
[142]
Lesley
Griffiths: Absolutely.
|
[143]
Christine
Chapman: This is what all
of us here are trying to ask questions about.
|
[144]
Lesley
Griffiths: When I came into
post, one thing that hit me was that we hadn’t engaged with
the private sector to the extent that I thought we should have
done. I’ve had two tackling poverty summits over the last
couple of months: one was in Cardiff in October, and one was in
Deeside last month, where we engaged with the public, the third
sector and the private sector, and I thought it was really
important that we did that. It was really interesting to hear
private sector employers—some quite large ones—saying
that they didn’t think about childcare, they didn’t
think about healthy living with their employees. So, I think
you’re absolutely right. On the other hand, we’re
seeing fantastic engagement. I was in Swansea on Monday, talking to
Lift participants, and they were all starting their work experience
yesterday, in Morrison’s, the Driver and Vehicle Licensing
Agency—you know, really big employers, providing Lift
opportunities, who have taken on board. But I think you’re
right: we do need to engage with the private sector. Employers do
need to understand their commitments.
|
[145]
Christine
Chapman: This may not be
your part of the portfolio, because it could be the economy
Minister, for example—
|
[146]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I think it
is a bit of both, really. But I think it was important that we did
engage the private sector. I’m not sure whether it was this
committee I said it to last week or another committee, but, the
tackling poverty summit we had in south Wales, we had a very large
company there who, at the end, offered us land to build a childcare
setting—just from the beginning of the summit to two and a
half hours later, the change was fantastic to see. But I think
engaging with the private sector is very important in this
agenda.
|
[147]
Christine
Chapman: Thank you. I
apologise to Members, because we’ve only about 12 minutes
left. I know Mark wants to come in, and Bethan as well, possibly.
So, Mark to ask some questions.
|
[148]
Mark
Isherwood: Okay. Do you
believe Welsh Government currently has sufficient data to
effectively target place-based anti-poverty schemes?
|
[149]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I think we do
have those data. I think they’re very robust data; I think we
get them from recognised sources, and we use very similar methods
to the other UK countries. So, I do think we have that. Communities
First concentrates on the 10 per cent most deprived communities in
Wales, and that’s defined by the Welsh index of multiple
deprivation. Each cluster’s based on those areas, and we have
very robust data—sorry, we had very robust criteria in the
beginning to determine where those areas were to be. Flying Start
is targeted using data from the Department for Work and Pensions
and Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs. That’s obviously
focused on geographical areas where we have the highest proportion
of children under four years of age living in income-benefit
households. WIMD uses the best possible range of data available and
that’s mainly drawn from the census or the administrative
data systems, and the Flying Start expansion also relies on local
authorities and their input also.
|
[150]
Mark
Isherwood: We know that child
poverty in Wales fell back from the UK average in the first five
years of devolution but started rising from 2004. It remains the
highest amongst the UK nations, second highest amongst the UK
regions according to the 2014 Social Mobility and Child Poverty
Commission. We know that Wales has the highest worklessness in the
UK and it’s been rising over recent quarters and we know that
the December figures on GVA for 2014 show that the relative
prosperity gap has widened again, not only in the poorest areas but
even in places like Wrexham and Flintshire, which have gone
backwards again. They are fairly robust data, so what robust data
do you have that can actually evidence reductions in poverty
specifically to any of your anti-poverty programmes, and how are
those measured—because to be empirical, they have to be
measured against communities in areas where those programmes have
not applied to see whether the performance has been impacted by
these programmes or despite them?
|
[151]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, our
programmes primarily seek to improve skills, to secure employment,
to improve health, aid childhood development—you know,
early-years interventions I’ve talked about, enhanced
parenting—and evidence tells us that they are absolutely the
right things we should be doing to help prevent poverty. The
programmes we have are only able to capture successful outcomes
from the specific interventions that they are providing, and that
will help someone leave poverty, we know that. But there are
challenges. I mentioned it’s very had to show that one single
intervention lifts somebody out of poverty and there are challenges
around that. But we’ve got the evidence from the Office for
National Statistics that tells us that we are taking the right
approach. I mentioned before the data I’d seen that showed
that, of those people aged 18 to 59 not working and living in a
household in poverty, 70 per cent of those who then entered
employment left poverty, so I think that’s absolutely the
right approach. The data that we have show we are increasing
numbers of people into employment, and the programmes that we
have—Lift, Communities First and PaCE— are all helping
us with that agenda.
|
[152]
Mark
Isherwood: Unfortunately, and
sadly, it’s not something to celebrate—quite the
opposite—we’ve seen overall worklessness rising over
recent quarters. But finally, if I may, an issue raised with me
repeatedly is the need to go beyond the area-based to using the
intelligence available from local networks. I know the Welsh
Government’s appointed recently somebody from Knowsley
Housing Trust, for example, to chair one of the—. It may not
be you—
|
[153]
Lesley
Griffiths: Oh, yes. It is
me.
|
[154]
Mark
Isherwood: And the Heseltine
initiative, which was hugely successful, was about community
ownership, community engagement, putting the community in control.
We know that Families First was originally a Welsh Government pilot
through five third sector bodies; there was an independent
evaluation, the Welsh Government never publicly responded to that
and instead transferred the work into the state sector and then
re-employed some of those third sector people. A repeated concern
for me recently, over recent months, is that the impact of the
change on Communities First has led to it being perceived as a
local government programme fitting in with local government
objectives rather than something being owned and run by the
community. So, how can we better utilise the networks that do exist
on the ground as equal partners in design and delivery, such as
social enterprises? Knowsley was based on housing—it was a
housing trust—and Merseyside, 25 years ago, moved on to the
housing-regeneration-based model for this wider agenda that
we’re all keen to see delivered. And in your own area and
part of my area, the Caia Park community partnership was
established in 1995 after a damning report on high levels of
poverty, and it is actually delivering many programmes for
Communities First because it has the expertise and the critical
mass already on the ground. So, it’s about using these, using
local networks, to target the need where it exists, rather than
having what’s perceived as a top-down state
programme.
|
[155]
Lesley
Griffiths: I have a couple of
points, first. On unemployment, we are seeing a fall in
unemployment now, and certainly we’ve got data to show that
the percentage of children living in workless households has been
decreasing consistently since 2009. It was 20 per cent in 2009, and
it was 16.5 per cent in 2013, and we will see a further drop when
the next figures come out, I’m sure.
|
[156]
You
talked about several things there. On housing, which we
haven’t really discussed, I see housing as very important in
this agenda also. People living in good-quality housing—it
improves their health, it improves their chances of getting
employment. With the funding that we’ve put in to raise all
social housing to the Welsh housing quality standard, we’re
well on target to achieving that by 2020. I think it’s 72 per
cent now of houses. I think the issues you raised about housing and
health are very important too.
|
[157]
It’s
interesting—you know, Peter Black was saying that Communities
First has become much more centralised, and you’re saying
that local authorities are going off and doing it on their
own—I think that’s what you were saying,
anyway.
|
[158]
Mark
Isherwood: Grant recipient
bodies are confusing their roles and are increasingly delivering
programmes to benefit their own objectives, which wasn’t how
Communities First was originally intended to operate. The failings
identified by the audit office, which triggered the changes, were
about failure to put in proper corporate services. It wasn’t
about the programme so much on the ground. That was used to give
local government the big stick, and, in some cases, that’s
led to at least the perception in communities that need most
support that the power’s been taken off them.
|
[159]
Lesley
Griffiths: That’s
certainly not my experience, talking to local partners. You
mentioned Caia Park specifically, and I would say that that’s
definitely not my experience there. I think what’s really
important is that our programmes complement each other, that they
work together. I think we have seen much more of a focus on that,
going forward. Not all lead delivery bodies are delivered by local
authorities. We’ve got third sector involvement, certainly,
in Anglesey and in Cardiff. So, I think it’s good to have a
look at what each LDB is doing differently, to see if there are
lessons that we can learn. I don’t know whether Eleanor wants
to say any more.
|
[160]
Ms
Marks: Indeed, the lead
delivery bodies, the main bodies—there are no grant recipient
bodies any longer—can deliver the programmes themselves, as
they do in places like Swansea, and, on the other hand, there are
very good models in Cardiff, which has a service level agreement
with three different third sector bodies to deliver Communities
First. In Anglesey, the local authority is the lead delivery body,
but it is delivered through a community-interest company there.
Community involvement remains at the heart of the programme. Yes,
some areas are better than others at it, but it is very important
that the community has a say in that. We’re very much looking
to work with communities, taking into account the requirements of
the new future generations Act as well, where communities need to
have a say in what is going forward, and Communities First is part
of that equation.
|
[161]
Mark
Isherwood: Okay.
|
[162]
Christine
Chapman: Bethan, did you
have any—? Obviously, we want to go on to the next session,
but we want a short break first. So, did you have any final
questions?
|
[163]
Bethan Jenkins: Jest
cwestiwn clou ynglŷn â’r data. Rwy’n credu ei
bod hi’n bwysig gofyn, oherwydd roedd Dr Peter Matthews wedi
dweud mewn tystiolaeth i’r pwyllgor cynt, pan oedden
nhw’n cymryd rhan yn y comisiwn a oedd wedi creu’r
adroddiad gan y pwyllgor yma, fod problemau gyda grwpiau
lleiafrifol neu ffeindio data mewn llefydd penodol ar leiafrifoedd
ethnig, pobl anabl, os oedden nhw mewn lle penodol. So, a ydych
chi’n gwybod bod yna ddata yna? A ydych chi’n defnyddio
data’r cyfrifiad i sicrhau bod lleiafrifoedd ethnig neu pobl
LGBT, er enghraifft, yn gallu cael eu cydnabod o fewn y
place-based strategaethau sydd gyda chi?
|
Bethan
Jenkins: Just a quick
question about the data. I think it’s important to ask,
because Dr Peter Matthews said in evidence to the previous
committee, when it contributed to the commission that led to the
report from this committee, that there are problems regarding
minority groups or finding data in specific places on ethnic
minorities, disabled people, if they were in a specific place. So,
do you know whether the data exist? Do you use the census data to
ensure that ethnic minorities or LGBT people, for example, can be
acknowledged within the place-based strategies that you
have?
|
[164]
Lesley
Griffiths: Certainly, they
can target specific groups if they want to. I mentioned a group of
young teenage pregnant mums. So, if they have an ethnic minority
group that they specifically want to target within their cluster,
or even if they see somebody outside their cluster, they can
help.
|
10:00
|
[165]
Bethan
Jenkins: It was just that
the evidence was—perhaps I didn’t make it clear—.
I think there was evidence from Scotland that it was hard to
identify, within a place-based environment, the non-heterosexual,
the sexual orientation of somebody, whether they were of an ethnic
minority or whether they were disabled. Therefore, it was hard,
then, to target a scheme because they couldn’t initially
identify them. So, do you use different sources of data to identify
them in the first instance?
|
[166]
Lesley
Griffiths: No, because we
seek to target all people living in poverty. So, I suppose
if—
|
[167]
Bethan
Jenkins: But they’re
not homogenous—
|
[168]
Lesley
Griffiths: No, they’re
not.
|
[169]
Bethan
Jenkins: I think
that’s what the argument was: they would have specific needs
within that place-based environment. I think
that’s—
|
[170]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think, in some
communities, it would benefit specific groups with protected
characteristics, for instance, but I don’t think we have the
data.
|
[171]
Ms
Marks: No, but there are
equalities grants that help certain particular groups in those
areas. Certainly, in the move from the last version of Communities
First to this one, we had discussions with various black minority
ethnic groups and now we invest the money into the area, but there
is some flexibility in Communities First to look at the specific
local needs. Again, that is something, in agreeing the flexibility
with the local authorities and where they want to invest, that we
could look at with them.
|
[172]
Lesley
Griffiths: So, if, for
instance, they had a Gypsy/Traveller community, as long as they put
it in their delivery plan that it was a community of interest, they
could do that.
|
[173]
Bethan
Jenkins: But they would
have to actively put that in.
|
[174]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes.
|
[175]
Bethan
Jenkins: So, they could
have Gypsies and Travellers but they would say, ‘Well, no, we
don’t actually want to put anything in for them as a
project.’ It wouldn’t be a stipulation that they would
need to, for example.
|
[176]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, they could do
it in their delivery plan.
|
[177]
Bethan
Jenkins: They could, but it
wouldn’t be obligatory for them to do so.
|
[178]
Lesley
Griffiths: No.
|
[179]
Bethan
Jenkins: Right.
|
[180]
Christine
Chapman: Okay. Thank you.
Can I thank the Minister? There may be some other questions, which
we will sort of write to you about, Minister, if that’s
okay.
|
[181]
Lesley
Griffiths: Okay.
|
[182]
Christine
Chapman: Can I thank you
and your officials for attending? I know you’ll be staying,
Minister, for the next part of this meeting, but we will send you a
transcript as usual, so if you can check that—. Thank you for
your attendance.
|
[183]
Lesley
Griffiths: Thank
you.
|
[184]
Christine
Chapman: We will take a
very short break now before we scrutinise the Minister on the
refreshed financial inclusion strategy. So, if you could come back
just after 10.05 a.m., or just before 10.10 a.m. Okay. Thank
you.
|
Gohiriwyd y cyfarfod rhwng
10:02 a 10:10.
The meeting adjourned between 10:02 and 10:10.
|
Strategaeth Cynhwysiant Ariannol
ar ei Newydd Wedd: y Gweinidog Cymunedau a Threchu Tlodi
Refreshed Financial Inclusion Strategy: the Minister for
Communities and Tackling Poverty
|
[185]
Christine Chapman: Welcome back, everyone. On this next item
for the meeting, if you remember, before the Christmas recess, we
did agree, as a committee, to invite the Minister to give evidence
on the Welsh Government’s refreshed financial inclusion
strategy. So, again, can I welcome back Lesley Griffiths, Minister
for Communities and Tackling Poverty, and also Eleanor Marks,
director, communities and tackling poverty, and also, Chris
Gittins, head of the financial inclusion unit? Welcome, again.
|
[186]
Minister, you know that, as we said, we did have a paper, as well,
from Bethan Jenkins, who has been doing a lot of work on this. So,
we will ask some questions around the strategy. I just want to
start off. Have you done an evaluation of the effectiveness and
outcome of the 2009 financial inclusion strategy?
|
[187]
Lesley Griffiths: Yes. There’s been some in-depth work
done on that by the previous financial inclusion delivery group.
That’s where a range of partners took forward a variety of
actions aimed at tackling financial inclusion. We’ve also had
independent evaluations taking place on major areas, which were key
to the implementation of the strategy. For instance, an evaluation
was undertaken around credit unions and the support that
we’ve given to them, and also the discretionary assistance
fund. More recently, we’ve supported the Better Advice,
Better Lives scheme, and that’s run by the citizens advice
bureau with support from us, and there’s a current evaluation
being undertaken on front-line services, as well.
|
[188]
Christine Chapman: What aspects of the strategy have had the
biggest impact?
|
[189]
Lesley Griffiths: The biggest impact, well, some of the
schemes that came out of the strategy—I’ve just
mentioned the Better Advice, Better Lives scheme. We also
introduced the discretionary assistance fund. Obviously,
we’re not responsible for post offices, but we had the post
office diversification fund for several years. So, I think those
three schemes are probably the aspects where we’ve had the
biggest impact from the strategy. I can give you some figures. The
Better Advice, Better Lives scheme has helped almost 60,000 people
and they’ve brought in confirmed benefit gains of more than
£52 million. The evaluation that we had—I think I
published it towards the end of last year—showed that
there’s been a significant positive effect on those who
access the services it supports, particularly the Better Advice,
Better Health strand. That helps individuals who are unlikely to
access any advice from any other source. So, I think that was a
really important point.
|
[190]
You’ll be aware that there were changes to the social fund,
and that’s where we worked with stakeholders, and then
we’ve had the discretionary assistance fund brought forward.
That provides emergency assistance to between 1,500 and 2,000
people each month. I’ve actually sat in and listened to some
of the phone calls, and we’re talking about people who are in
absolute crisis—again, a huge impact on the health service.
The last time I visited the DAF office, somebody had rung up who
had no funding to take their child from north Wales to Alder Hey
hospital in Liverpool for a scan, and that was turned around within
half an hour, and they were able to have that appointment, which,
you know, the cost to the NHS—. So, I think the discretionary
assistance fund goes beyond my portfolio. Then, I mentioned the
post office diversification fund, and that’s half of Welsh
post offices benefiting from grants worth around £6.6 million,
and if we’re talking about financial inclusion, I think post
offices have a really important role to play.
|
[191]
Christine Chapman: Thank you. Alun.
|
10:15
|
[192]
Alun
Davies: It’s
difficult to disagree with anything you’ve just
said, Minister—
|
[193]
Mike
Hedges: But you’re
going to try. [Laughter.]
|
[194]
Alun
Davies: I’m not
trying to either. In terms of the refreshed strategy, I remember
similar debates we had on the private Member’s Bill that
Bethan Jenkins brought forward were based on the 2009 strategy, if
I remember it correctly. So, what are you doing today that’s
different to what was being done then? My memory at the time was
that the Government argument was that we didn’t need the Bill
because we had a strategy and we were delivering financial
inclusion through an alternative means, which didn’t require
legislation.
|
[195]
Lesley
Griffiths: I too should say
that we’ve worked very closely with Bethan Jenkins and with
Bethan’s representative on our delivery group, and I think
Bethan’s work has really focused us on this. As you say,
Bethan came forward with a proposal for legislation, and we had
many discussions going forward on whether that legislation was
needed, but we did feel that we have the strategy and we’re
now building on that strategy. We have to accept that the economic
climate has completely changed since we had that strategy, and I
think it’s really important that we do now ensure that our
financial inclusion has a very direct impact on people who are
living in low-income households, for instance.
|
[196]
We’re also
working much more closely with the Money Advice Service. They
launched a financial capability strategy for the UK. They have a
stand-alone strategy document for Wales, which was launched here in
the Senedd in November, and we’re going to support Money
Advice Service Wales going forward. There were also many
discussions—. I think when we gave evidence, the Minister for
Education and Skills came along too. I know that Bethan’s had
discussions there to make sure that we are addressing financial
inclusion with children in schools. I think that’s really
important, if we can start there, and we’ve got junior credit
unions. I’ve visited a couple; we’ve got them in
schools also. So, we felt that, right across Government, there were
aspects that fed into this agenda and that the legislation
wasn’t needed. But, as I say, we have worked very closely
with Bethan going forward.
|
[197]
Bethan
Jenkins: I just wanted to
say that I think the motivation was—I ought to declare an
interest, given the Bill—that there wasn’t anything
fundamentally wrong with what was happening; it was how it was
tracked back. When I was looking at evidence, either through the
education system or local authorities, it was very sporadic, very
patchy, as to what was happening. So, the reason for putting it in
legislation was to try and make sure that that would happen
because, with all due respect, it’s only since we’ve
had this refreshed strategy that we’ve been looking at the
issue anew. That’s not to take away from the fact that we are
where we are now and there’s lots of work going on, but that
was the motivation for the legislation, although I appreciate that
that time has passed.
|
[198]
With
regard to education, for example, obviously, we’ve got the
numeracy and literacy framework but, within that, actually,
financial education was minimal. So, it’s now looking to see
whether that can be improved as well. Sorry; I don’t want to
take over in giving evidence rather than scrutinising the
Minister—[Laughter.]—but I just wanted to add
that to what the Minister was saying.
|
[199]
Christine
Chapman: Thank you, Behtan
Jenkins, for the clarification. Okay, thanks. Alun, did you want to
finish?
|
[200]
Alun
Davies: Yes. One assumes
that the financial inclusion strategy, which you’ve
described, and which Bethan describes, is aligned with the tackling
poverty action plan. I make that assumption. Is that
correct?
|
[201]
Lesley
Griffiths: That’s
absolutely correct. It links with other key strategies but
absolutely with the tackling poverty action plan.
|
[202]
Alun
Davies: I am aware that
the future generations Act, as it now is, includes an indicator
relating to poverty. Does that include financial inclusion or is
that a wider issue?
|
[203]
Lesley
Griffiths: As I mentioned,
financial inclusion is a key priority as part of our tackling
poverty agenda. So, it has links with all our key strategies. You
may be aware that, in the revised child poverty strategy, we added
a new objective about supporting people living in poverty to
increase their household income through debt advice and financial
advice. So, again, the child poverty strategy also feeds into
that.
|
[204]
In
relation to the Well-Being of Future Generations (Wales) Act 2015,
we recently consulted on our proposals to measure the achievement
of the seven wellbeing goals for Wales, and the indicators have an
important role, I think, in helping to measure the progress towards
the seven of them. There were two measures specifically relating to
poverty within the draft indicators, but we do recognise, of
course, that poverty is multi-layered, so we’re therefore
proposing a second indicator on material deprivation, and that
measures whether households can afford necessary goods and
activities through a series of questions on the national survey,
including a question on keeping up with bills and credit
commitments. I think if we know whether people can afford essential
items and activities, that will really help us know far more about
over-indebtedness in Wales.
|
[205]
Alun
Davies: And is that a part
of a movement on poverty in terms of what the Welsh Government
measures in terms of poverty reduction? Because, at the moment, we
use very traditional measures of poverty, which are measures of
inequality as much as they are measures of poverty. We are where we
are with all of those. So, does this indicate that the Welsh
Government is moving towards a more fundamental measure of absolute
poverty rather than simply relative poverty?
|
[206]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I think it
does, and the Act—we all, obviously, have to take heed of the
Act, and that will help us on this agenda also.
|
[207]
Christine
Chapman: Okay.
Bethan.
|
[208]
Bethan
Jenkins: So, how will that
new indicator feed into the action plan for the revised financial
inclusion strategy?
|
[209]
Lesley
Griffiths: It’s
something I think we can look at as we develop the action plan. We
can look at that, can’t we?
|
[210]
Mr
Gittins: Yes, when the
action plan or the delivery plan is developed—
|
[211]
Bethan
Jenkins: I don’t care
what it’s called as long as it gets done, believe
me.
|
[212]
Mr
Gittins: It’s
something that, without a doubt, we will look at as we progress
that delivery plan.
|
[213]
Christine
Chapman: Okay, thank you.
Peter.
|
[214]
Peter
Black: Minister, when you
consulted on the strategy, why did you not also consult on an
action plan delivery plan along with it?
|
[215]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, I think that
was something that the financial inclusion development group wanted
to leave, going forward—not necessarily for the next
Government, because I think it will just follow on, but I think
they thought it was better to wait and get the strategy published.
I intend to publish the strategy mid-March, before the end of term,
and then after that the development of the delivery plan will take
place over 2016. But I think that was something that sort of came
forward. Discussions were held within the group, and that was what
they thought would be the best way forward.
|
[216]
Peter
Black: So, will the final
strategy include a formal commitment to monitoring and evaluation,
possibly including annual reports?
|
[217]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, absolutely.
An annual report, yes.
|
[218]
Peter
Black: And monitoring and
evaluation as well.
|
[219]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes.
|
[220]
Peter
Black: And will it
contain clear targets so we can measure progress?
|
[221]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. We’ll
certainly have a look at setting targets. I think they’ve got
to be very clear, measurable actions, but, absolutely, an annual
report.
|
[222]
Peter
Black: So when that comes
out in March, it will all be there, complete.
|
[223]
Lesley
Griffiths: That will be the
strategy, and then we’ll go forward.
|
[224]
Peter
Black: And that strategy
will contain all that when it comes out in March.
|
[225]
Lesley
Griffiths: The strategy will
contain that, yes.
|
[226]
Peter
Black: In
March.
|
[227]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes.
|
[228]
Christine
Chapman: Okay. Alun, you
had a supplementary.
|
[229]
Lesley
Griffiths: Also, can I just
say that one thing I’m very keen to see in the delivery plan
is an independent evaluation?
|
[230]
Christine
Chapman: Okay.
Alun.
|
[231]
Alun
Davies: I think we would
all welcome that. I know that Government is very fond of doing
this, but I don’t see any purpose at all to a strategy
without a delivery plan, because all a strategy is is a means of
achieving what the objectives are. It’s a very simple
concept, but Government seems to think it’s so
extraordinarily complex. Why publish a strategy that doesn’t
have objectives, doesn’t say how you’re going to
deliver something, and doesn’t have means of measuring
it?
|
[232]
Lesley
Griffiths: The group was very
keen that we didn’t do it. We published the strategy and then
we looked to develop the delivery plan over the next few months.
So, I didn’t sit on the group. Bethan’s representative
sat on the group, along with representatives from credit unions,
legal, Citizens Advice—
|
[233]
Mr
Gittins: Community Housing
Cymru, the illegal money-lending unit, and others.
|
[234]
Lesley
Griffiths: So, it was
something that—
|
[235]
Alun
Davies: You’re
washing your hands of this one, are you?
|
[236]
Lesley
Griffiths: No, I’m not
washing my hands of it. I’m just saying that I listened to
what the group—
|
[237]
Christine
Chapman: Sorry, was it
because they wanted to make sure that they got it right, as opposed
to rushing things through?
|
[238]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I think so.
Also, the future generations Act had an impact on it as well. I
think they also wanted to look at how that fitted in.
|
[239]
Christine
Chapman: Okay. Bethan, you
had on this—
|
[240]
Bethan
Jenkins: I think it’s
important to put on the record that I did raise concerns about the
fact that a delivery plan was necessary and, to be fair, officials
have listened to that. But I fundamentally do agree that people
should have been consulted on an action plan or a delivery plan,
because it’s hard then for groups. I’ve had e-mails
concerned about how people are consulted as part of how it is
delivered—participants and people who receive that service.
And so, I would hope that—. I think it’s going to be
delivered in a future Government—
|
[241]
Lesley
Griffiths: Absolutely.
|
[242]
Bethan
Jenkins: —not now,
but there’s potential for that. But, certainly—. I know
timelines were tight, but—.
|
[243]
Lesley
Griffiths: It is difficult
with timelines, as you say, but I absolutely commit to—a
delivery plan will come forward over the next few
months.
|
[244]
Bethan
Jenkins: We’ve got
you on record now, anyway.
|
[245]
Lesley
Griffiths: You’ve got
me on record, and that’s why I said it.
|
[246]
Christine
Chapman: Okay, thank you.
Mark, have you got some questions?
|
[247]
Mark
Isherwood: Right, yes. Again,
with reference to the plan, the strategy, and referring back to the
2009 strategy, which referred to provision of fee-free cash
machines, what monitoring has the Welsh Government undertaken of
progress on that since 2009, and where are we up to?
|
[248]
Lesley
Griffiths: Okay. Where
we’re up to is that Link are the largest provider of ATMs in
Wales, and the aim was that they would provide free-to-use cash
machines in 185 areas in Wales, and 144 areas have been resolved. I
have asked officials to be in more regular contact with Link going
forward, because I think we need to get up to that achievement of
185. So, I’ve asked officials to meet with them more
regularly, to review progress more regularly, but that’s
where we are at the current time.
|
[249]
Mark
Isherwood: And, beyond that,
what direct contact has the Welsh Government had, or does the Welsh
Government have, with banks, post offices now delivering banking
services—HSBC are now on board, thankfully—and other
financial institutions that can deliver on some of the commitments
in your strategy—including, I think, the Institute of
Financial Services, which, when we did an inquiry in the last
Assembly, were providing excellent support in some schools in
Wales—helping to develop not only an interest in financial
matters but addressing all levels of need, but engaging, in terms
of, obviously, cash machines, with the wider networks and other
transactional processes and accounts?
|
[250]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, banking is
obviously a matter for the UK Government, but, in answer to your
question, I don’t think we have enough contact with them. One
thing I would be very keen to see is the banking sector represented
on the new group going forward. So, we’ve had the delivery
group now, but, going forward, following the publication of the
strategy, we need to look at the membership of the group, and I
would like to see the banking sector represented on the group,
because I do think we need to have much more contact with banking
than we do at the moment.
|
[251]
Mark
Isherwood: I would commend
the IFS and I know some of the banks would welcome that, and some
of the social banks and building societies as well. You mentioned
the UK Government: has your representation on the UK financial
capability board helped in taking these issues forward?
|
[252]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think so.
Eleanor’s the representative on it, so—.
|
[253]
Ms
Marks: Yes, it has.
We’ve been engaging and invited to be on the board with them.
The conversation, then, is about what is happening in England and
what is happening in Wales, and we’ve been able to join up
the intentions behind the MAS strategy for Wales and our own
financial inclusion strategy, which will be published, and there is
a good contribution and two-way dialogue between both
sides.
|
[254]
Mark
Isherwood: Right, thank you.
I know the next set of questions, which are not mine, relate to
matters that—. I’ve got to leave shortly,
unfortunately, and I did want to ask one question about credit
unions without touching on the specific questions to follow for
yourselves. If funding for credit unions currently from, I think,
the UK and Welsh Governments is ending in 2017, how will credit
unions in Wales be supported to develop the critical mass for
transition to so-called sustainability, because without that
we’re going to fall back on a limited network of very local
organisations without the critical mass to expand the services to
meet the needs that we’re all talking about?
|
[255]
Lesley
Griffiths: You know I
passionately believe in credit unions and I’ve been working
very hard with credit unions since I’ve been in post to try
and make sure that they are sustainable going forward. It’s
really important, I think, that they work with the private sector
far more than they are doing. Certainly in north Wales you’ll
be aware of the North Wales Credit Union. They’ve now got
links with Airbus.
|
10:30
|
[256]
So, I
think what they need to do is make sure that they are sustainable.
We’re seeing more mergers now and I know they are looking to
do that. Again, they’ve worked very closely with us on this
strategy and I think we need to make sure—. They have
transformed over the past 15 or 16 years, but they need to continue
to build up their membership to make sure that they are
sustainable.
|
[257]
Mark
Isherwood: The North Wales
Credit Union, as you probably know, has an annual general meeting
next Saturday in Wrexham. There is genuine concern that
without—not as much, necessarily, support—. But,
without financial and material support, that transition in 2017
won’t work and things will go backwards. So, I hope to hear
some commitment from all parties as we move towards the election on
that matter.
|
[258]
Finally, yet
again, without trying to touch on other people’s territory,
debt advice: I have two daughters who are qualified debt advisers,
who work in debt advice in the third sector, and a recurring
problem in Wales is that the focus on a small number of financial
organisations has led to a focus on crisis management. So,
it’s when the bailiffs are coming, or when the landlord or
building society is threatening to repossess, rather than tackling
the revolving door through intervening, helping people to plan
budgets, and helping with wider financial education—something
that is being delivered by some third sector bodies and networks,
which no longer receive any Welsh Government support or
acknowledgement. The consequence is that some Welsh-based
organisations are seeing a massive growth in demand from
English-based organisations, but a significant contraction in
referrals from Wales. How would you respond to that?
|
[259]
Lesley
Griffiths: The National
Advice Network are having a look at the way we fund organisations.
I’m going to bring some recommendations through, so I suppose
it would be for the next Government to look at that, but I think
that the evaluation that we’ve had up to now—I
mentioned Better Advice, Better Lives—has shown that
that’s the right way forward. Good quality advice is really
important. If you have bad advice, that’s just the same as
having no advice. So, I have asked the National Advice Network to
have a look at that going forward.
|
[260]
Mark
Isherwood: I would stress
that these are properly qualified, accredited people; they’re
not just do-gooders. They’re that as well.
|
[261]
Christine
Chapman: Okay, thank you.
Mike, you had a supplementary.
|
[262]
Mike
Hedges: Yes. On banks, I
don’t want to go into bank closures, but the problem that we
have, and does the Minister agree, is that, when they close banks,
in many cases, they also close the cashpoint outside. I’ve
said on more than one occasion that it’s exceptionally
expensive to be poor because you’ve then got to try and make
your way to a free site and, the poorer the area, the less likely
it is you have a free site. What representation has the Welsh
Government made to the banking sector, not to stop them closing
banks—I think we’re going to have a debate on that in
the next couple of weeks—but to not take out all the
cashpoints as well?
|
[263]
Lesley
Griffiths: As I say, I
don’t think we’ve had enough contact with banks. I
think you raise a really important point that we can certainly take
up with them. One of the reasons why I’ve asked officials to
review the progress that Link have made is because of
that.
|
[264]
Christine
Chapman: Okay?
|
[265]
Mark
Isherwood: Yes.
|
[266]
Christine
Chapman: Bethan, did you
have some questions?
|
[267]
Bethan
Jenkins: Well, I think,
Mark—you know, some of the issues there, it’s quite
interesting to me to hear about what he has to say, but, on credit
unions, obviously, you will know that, I suppose, some of my
concern comes from—. Because we haven’t seen a delivery
plan, it’s how the credit union, just moving on from Mark,
really, I suppose, will deliver on some of the issues that
we’ve discussed as part of the group in terms of improving
access to affordable short-term credit. Because having spoken
to—and I think Peter Black has had the same
experience—the credit union sector on the ground, it’s
amazing that you stand up in Plenary and say how great they are,
but I think, sometimes, the reality is that they feel that the
rhetoric doesn’t reflect the actual ground-level support that
they need to build sustainable credit unions for the future. So,
when we say ‘work with’, when we say, ‘we will
endeavour to’, I think what we need to know, as a committee
and for future Assembly Members, regardless of whether we’re
still sitting here after May, is how they will be able to deliver
on the plan, the financial inclusion strategy, moving forward, if
they have their own challenges ahead and lack of potential
investment.
|
[268]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. I do think
they’re great; I also think that they’re kind of a
best-kept secret. I don’t think enough people think about
them—discussions I’ve had with my own daughters, you
know, they really had no idea what they did and what they provided,
et cetera. I think it’s down to all of us as Assembly Members
to make sure they’re not best-kept secrets. I, and Eleanor
will back me—well, Eleanor does it as well. We’ll go to
meetings now and we’ll say, ‘Hands up, who’s a
member of a credit union?’ We embarrass people into joining.
It’s quite a good way of doing it. I do think they do
fantastic work. I just don’t think people realise that
they’re there for the purposes that they are there for. So,
if somebody wants to buy a car, I don’t think they would
think necessarily of going to a credit union for a loan for a car.
So, I think it’s down to not just me as Minister but all of
us as Assembly Members to get that message out. So, I do think they
are great, but they’re a bit under the radar sometimes, which
they shouldn’t be.
|
[269]
Bethan
Jenkins: But, for example,
Swansea council will put on the forms they send out to people about
joining the credit union—can we not make that a scheme across
Wales, for example, of promotion in already publicly-funded
literature?
|
[270]
Lesley
Griffiths: Absolutely. Across
the public sector, we’ve made great progress on getting
people to join up—you know, health boards, and, again,
ministerial colleagues have been very good writing out to the
public sector that they’re responsible for ensuring that
happens. I think it’s the private sector where we need to
make strides, but I think that’s down to credit unions to do.
I mentioned North Wales Credit Union, which now have Airbus on
board, and it’s great—. I had a credit union conference
and Airbus came along and were really positive about it, but they
need to be doing more work there. I also think we need to do more
work with the Department for Work and Pensions, so that they can
signpost universal credit claimants to credit unions. I think that
would be a way of engaging more people—
|
[271]
Bethan
Jenkins: Have you talked to
the DWP about that?
|
[272]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. Well,
officials have. I’ll ask Chris to come in now. So, I think
that’s a really important thing we can do just to try and
raise awareness of credit unions, and those are the sort of people
that probably need credit unions the most. That’s something I
do want to see in the delivery plan: working much more closely with
DWP and they then being able to signpost claimants towards a credit
union to see what services they can provide for their claimants. Do
you want to say more, Chris?
|
[273]
Mr
Gittins: Do you mind? Yes.
The DWP and Jobcentre Plus Wales were part of the financial
inclusion delivery group. Certainly, we’ve had some good
discussions with them in terms of the commitments but we need to
work with them on the action plan. I think that goes without
saying. On the credit-union side, on the payroll agenda, what we do
have is the credit union collaboration group, which brings together
credit unions or representatives from credit unions, and one of the
areas on the agenda there is payroll and how they can work
collectively as a movement to improve payroll with our support and
with support from others, such as local authorities. Credit unions
themselves as well are developing their own credit union strategy
and that’s something we will need to feed in and work with
them on. We work very closely with both trade bodies, the
Association of British Credit Unions Limited and Access to Credit
Unions for Everyone as well.
|
[274]
Lesley
Griffiths: I was very keen to
see a credit union strategy, because there wasn’t one and I
think it’s really important that they do have
that.
|
[275]
Christine
Chapman: Before we move on
from credit unions, I’ve got a couple of supplementaries,
first of all from Peter, then John.
|
[276]
Peter
Black: Specifically on
that issue about the DWP, obviously the biggest concern in terms of
universal credit has come from housing providers. I think
it’s excellent that DWP will signpost, and some councils in
fact—I’m just going to declare I’m a member of
Loans and Savings Abertawe Credit Union here as well—and I
think Swansea is actually working through the housing with their
tenants to try to signpost them there. So, are you also doing work
with housing providers as well to make sure that they signpost
tenants on universal credit to credit unions because there is a
concern about the money being paid in arrears and entering into
rent arrears as a result of that?
|
[277]
Lesley
Griffiths: Could I just
say—we’re all going to do this now—I’m a
member of North Wales Credit Union? Yes, absolutely, CHC
were—
|
[278]
Mr
Gittins: Yes, Community
Housing Cymru were—
|
[279]
Lesley
Griffiths: Community Housing
Cymru were on the group, so that is something that we can look
at.
|
[280]
Peter
Black: And local councils
as well, or—?
|
[281]
Mr
Gittins: Yes. Well, the
Welsh Local Government Association were part of the financial
inclusion delivery group.
|
[282]
Peter
Black: WLGA don’t
always feed things back to their members, do they?
|
[283]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, perhaps
councillors could—
|
[284]
Peter
Black: Did I say that in
public? Gosh. [Laughter.]
|
[285]
Christine
Chapman: Okay.
John.
|
[286]
John
Griffiths: I’m a member
of Newport Credit Union, Chair.
|
[287]
Lesley
Griffiths: Good.
|
[288]
Christine
Chapman: I’m a member
of a credit union—
|
[289]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think every
Assembly Member is actually a member of a credit union.
|
[290]
Christine
Chapman: Yes, okay. So, we
just need to—. Okay. Sorry, John.
|
[291]
John
Griffiths: I’m just
interested, Minister, in what view you have in terms of which
credit unions within Wales have developed apace as it were and
which are relatively slow to develop. Because I think there’s
a view that there is a responsibility on credit unions themselves
to promote themselves and to be proactive and to get out there and
market and interact, and make sure that individuals and
organisations sign up and that they develop relationships with lots
of other organisations. Is that your view, and is that one of the
main reasons why some credit unions have developed relatively
quickly compared to others?
|
[292]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. It’s
like everything, isn’t it; there are some better than others.
I’m not being biased, but I do think North Wales Credit Union
has led the way, really, just with their engagement with the
private sector. I was really impressed with what they did with
Airbus; it was great to see it. Some, perhaps, are more fortunate
because of where their position is on the high street, for
instance. You know, if you’ve got a high-street setting that
looks much more like a bank, I think that can help as well. And I
know some of the smaller ones are looking at how they can make
themselves more sustainable. Did you say you were a member of
Newport?
|
[293]
John
Griffiths: Yes.
|
[294]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think Newport
are very good. Also, they’ve just moved to a much more
appropriate setting because, as I say, I don’t think people
realise what credit unions are there for and what they do. So, I
think we need to go back to best practice and look at some best
practice, and make sure that best practice is shared. But, I do
think credit unions, probably because they know their funding is
ending next year, are now stepping up to the plate a bit
more.
|
[295]
John
Griffiths: Just one more, if
I may, Chair. In terms of individuals—and individuals in more
deprived circumstances particularly—benefiting from credit
unions, is it clear to you now that credit unions do make a better
offer to people in terms of interest rates? Because for a long
time, I think, there was a view that, in actual fact, some of the
rates that credit unions were charging—if that’s the
right word—weren’t that attractive compared to some
other providers. Is it your view now that what the credit unions
offer in general across Wales is a good offer for people in terms
of repayments they have to make, and so on?
|
[296]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, certainly, in
general. I’ve not come across any—. I’m going to
ask Chris if he’s got any specifics he can offer.
|
[297]
Mr
Gittins: I think, in
general, they do provide a very good offer, but I know that some
credit unions will vary, particularly if somebody payroll deducts
with them—they would offer a different rate, potentially.
But, generally across the board, there’s a very good offer
from the movement, really.
|
[298]
Christine
Chapman: Okay, thanks.
I’m going to bring Mike in now. Just to remind Members,
we’ve got about 20 minutes maximum, so if you can make sure
your questions are fairly concise. Mike.
|
[299]
Mike
Hedges: Can I just start
off by saying that they may not be competitive against high-street
banks, but they’re certainly competitive against doorstep
lenders? The question I was going to ask was about providing
information, and you talked about the commitment to providing
information. Can I say—it’s not a criticism of you in
particular, but a criticism of Governments across the
board—that ‘providing information’ quite often is
‘We’ll put it on our website and hope somebody can find
it’? There are people who are not IT literate and people who
don’t have access to IT devices. I won’t say that
people don’t have broadband, because most of the stuff you
can pick up on baseband anyway, which I think is something that is
quite often ignored. But, some people need paper to flick through;
some people have got certain problems which mean that having it
available for them in non-electronic means makes life a lot easier.
Are you going to make sure that the information is available for
people in other forms apart from ‘You’ll find it
somewhere on the Welsh Government website, good
luck’?
|
[300]
Lesley
Griffiths: Absolutely, and I
think that’s something that will need to be in the delivery
plan. I think it’s really important that in the delivery plan
we commit to providing that information, whether it be
face-to-face, telephone, paper—. You know, we have made
inroads into digital inclusion, but I absolutely accept that not
everybody gets their information from the internet. And certainly,
the advice service network—I’ve put extra funding in
because whilst we can’t mitigate—. Well, we certainly
can’t plug all the gaps that are coming from the UK
Government, but I think mitigation is really important, and one
part of mitigation that I personally think is very important is
that advice service network that we’ve put significant
funding into. So, when we draw up the delivery plan, I think
it’s really important that we make it very clear that that
information will be available in forms other than the
internet.
|
[301]
Mike
Hedges: Thank
you.
|
[302]
Christine
Chapman: I just want to ask
something around financial education. Did you ever consider
requiring regular thematic reviews of financial education that
could be carried out by Estyn?
|
10:45
|
[303]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, but the
bidding process for Estyn picking up on thematic reviews is
actually finishing. But I know that the Minister for Education and
Skills gave a personal commitment, when we were discussing whether
to have legislation or not, that they would have that.
So—
|
[304]
Christine
Chapman: Just to clarify,
it is something he would like to happen.
|
[305]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, it is going
to happen.
|
[306]
Christine
Chapman: So, it is going to
happen.
|
[307]
Lesley
Griffiths: It is going to
happen in 2016-17, because he personally committed to it, but the
bidding process is stopping.
|
[308]
Christine
Chapman: Right. It was that
the timing’s not right yet.
|
[309]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes. So,
Estyn’s remit for 2016-17 will include the thematic review of
the quality of provision of financial education in primary and
secondary schools, because that was one of the commitments we gave
going forward.
|
[310]
Christine
Chapman: Right. Okay. And
in terms of whether you feel that the commitment in the draft
strategy relating to improving the financial education and
financial capability of the wider population—do you think the
commitments there are sufficiently ambitious, Minister?
|
[311]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, I do. I think
the strategy acknowledges the importance of access to both
financial services and advice being underpinned by the need to
improve the financial capability of people in Wales. To be
financially capable, you need to have that confidence, you need to
have that ability, and you need to have the motivation to apply the
skills and knowledge gained through financial education. We work
very closely with the Money Advice Service, and they launched, as I
mentioned before, the financial capability strategy for the UK.
We’ve got a stand-alone document for Wales, which was
launched here in the Senedd. I’m going to make sure that we
continue to support the Money Advice Service Wales to take forward
any proposed actions that come from the strategy, when it’s
published in March—the strategy that we’re
publishing—which will contribute to the commitments that we
are going to make in the strategy.
|
[312]
Christine
Chapman: Okay. Thank you.
Bethan.
|
[313]
Bethan
Jenkins: I just want to
follow on from education, because one of the other elements—I
appreciate it’s not your portfolio, but the wider educational
aspects I still am a bit concerned about, in the sense that, in the
Bill, I was trying my best to put in provision for further
education and HE, because, based on evidence, having spoken to FE,
they were saying that there are so many cutbacks at the moment
that, if a tutor is going to deliver a lesson, or if someone is
going to opt for a module, it’s unlikely they will be opting
to take one on financial education, given the pressures that that
individual would feel to be able to get the skill that
they’re going to college for, be it plumbing, be it
hairdressing, be it engineering. And so, I hope that perhaps there
can be some more work from the educational side on
that—that’s a message to the education Minister, not
particularly yourself.
|
[314]
But on
the Money Advice Service strategy, you will know my concerns just
in terms of wanting to clarify, if they are not going to be married
in one single strategy, how you will be able to differentiate
between the Welsh Government strategy and the Money Advice Service
strategy, and also how you will then be carrying forth discussions
with them on that. Obviously, it’s a similar path, but a
different path in the sense that there will be two co-existing
strategies. I still have a bit of a concern over that,
really.
|
[315]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, as I say, we
have worked very, very closely with them going forward, and I
will—. I think what we perhaps need to do is—.
Obviously, we’ll have our strategy; we need to look at the
group going forward—you know, the terms of
reference—because I know you’ve raised concerns about
the group, and I think it’s really important that we get the
group right, following the strategy, and then getting the delivery
plan there. The UK Financial Inclusion Commission recommended the
development of that financial capability strategy for the UK, which
was co-ordinated by the Money Advice Service, and I think
it’s really important that we work very, very closely with
them to take it forward. We did think about having a single
strategy document, as you’re probably aware, and the group
discussed the potential for it. I think what’s important is
that you kind of embed the relevant content from the other one into
this. But I do think it’s something that we need to keep an
eye on going forward.
|
[316]
Mr
Gittins: Yes, we do. In
terms of when we develop the delivery plan and the group, there
will have to be a clear mechanism for the Money Advice Service work
to feed into that, because the Money Advice Service does have a
Wales financial capability group as well that monitors our actions.
I sit on that as well. So, part of my responsibility, and others
there, is to make sure we feed back and forth, because we
don’t want to duplicate, but we want to work
together.
|
[317]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, it’s
really important work with the development of the delivery plan as
well.
|
[318]
Bethan
Jenkins: It’s just
because, as Peter was saying earlier about targets, if
there’s going to be a target on certain action points within
the Welsh Government strategy, we want to make sure that that is
achievable within what you can do, and not then say down the
line—I appreciate you as an individual Minister may be
concerned, but a future Minister might not be so
concerned—‘Well, actually, the Money Advice Service are
doing that; we don’t need to touch it.’ So, that would
be my concern, which is the whole reason for
legislation.
|
[319]
Lesley
Griffiths: I think Bethan
raises a really important point, and it’s very important that
everybody knows what their role is, what their responsibility is
going forward. As you say, you can’t just say, ‘Well,
they’re doing it.’ Everybody needs to be very aware of
that.
|
[320]
Bethan
Jenkins: Okay.
|
[321]
Christine
Chapman: John, your final
question.
|
[322]
John
Griffiths: In terms of the
financial inclusion strategy, Minister, has any consideration been
given to the impact of decisions across Welsh Government, in terms
of policy strategy and funding decisions? Is it joined up across
Government? Would you be in a position to state what
cross-Government decisions are in terms of impact on that financial
inclusion strategy?
|
[323]
Lesley
Griffiths: Well, the new
strategy will obviously build on existing funded programme
commitments, but it will identify ways that we can take forward any
new actions, I think, going forward, in collaboration with partner
organisations. The financial inclusion strategy has many links to
other key policies and programmes, from right across Government, so
I do think there is that joining up that you asked about. Funding
to support financial inclusion won’t just come from my
portfolio—it will come from other portfolios as well.
Obviously, there’s financial education, which we’ve
already talked about, and there’s digital inclusion. Two
areas we haven’t spoken about are fuel poverty and food
poverty, which sit with other Ministers. And housing support has
been alluded to, which, obviously, is in my portfolio.
|
[324]
So,
there is a range of budgets that support the agenda. Probably most
of it does come from my budget, but there is, certainly, that
join-up right across Government.
|
[325]
John
Griffiths: Would you have
given specific consideration to the impact of decisions on
allocation of funding by other Welsh Government Ministers on the
financial inclusion strategy? Is that something that would have
been considered and analysed?
|
[326]
Lesley
Griffiths: I’m not sure
about analysed. It would have been considered.
|
[327]
Mr
Gittins: It would have been
considered as part of the financial inclusion development group. We
had partners there across Welsh Government, as well. But I think
that, when we get into the specifics, it will be something that
will be looked at as part of the delivery plan as well.
|
[328]
Bethan
Jenkins: I suppose what,
perhaps, John is trying to say is that we need to have an equality
assessment, or an impact assessment, as to how, then, when
you’re budgeting for future Government portfolios, you would
be able to deliver on those aims, throughout Government, as opposed
to just one ministerial portfolio.
|
[329]
Lesley
Griffiths: Yes, absolutely.
We have BAGE, which is the group that looks at the equality aspect
of the budget. So, they would be able to have a look at
it.
|
[330]
Christine
Chapman: There aren’t
any other questions, Minister. So, can I thank you and your
officials for attending? Obviously, we will send you a transcript
of the discussion, so that you can check it to see whether there
are any inaccuracies. But thank you very much for
attending.
|
[331]
Lesley
Griffiths: Thank
you.
|
10:53
|
Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note
|
[332]
Christine
Chapman: Before we close
the public part of the meeting, there is a paper to note: a letter
from the Minister for Health and Social Services.
|
10:54
|
Cynnig o dan Reol Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu
Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Remainder of the Meeting
|
Cynnig:
|
Motion:
|
bod y pwyllgor yn
penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod yn unol â
Rheol Sefydlog 17.42(vi).
|
that the committee
resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting in
accordance with Standing Order 17.42(vi).
|
Cynigiwyd y
cynnig. Motion
moved.
|
|
[333]
Christine
Chapman: Could I now invite
the committee to move into private session, to discuss the evidence
that we have received today? Are you content for that?
Okay.
|
Derbyniwyd y
cynnig.
Motion agreed.
|
Daeth rhan
gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am 10:54.
The public part of the meeting ended at 10:54.
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