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(Culture Committee CC-5-02\(min\))Tj
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(MINUTES)Tj
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( )Tj
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(Date:)Tj
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(Wednesday, 27 February 2002)Tj
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(Time:)Tj
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(9.00am-12.30pm)Tj
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(Venue:)Tj
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(Committee Room 1, National Assembly)Tj
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/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 502.59798 Tm
(Attendance:)Tj
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/TT1 1 Tf
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(Rhodri Glyn Thomas \(Plaid Cymru, Carmarthen East and Dinefwr, Chair\))Tj
ET
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/TT1 1 Tf
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(Jenny Randerson \(Liberal Democrat, Cardiff Central, Assembly Minister\)\
)Tj
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14 0 0 14 10 394.81848 Tm
(Owen John Thomas \(Plaid Cymru, South Wales Central\))Tj
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(Lorraine Barrett \(Labour, Cardiff South and Penarth\))Tj
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(Alison Halford \(Labour, Delyn\))Tj
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(Dafydd Wigley \(Plaid Cymru, Caernarfon\))Tj
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(Glyn Davies \(Conservative, Mid and West Wales\))Tj
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(Delyth Evans \(Labour, Mid & West Wales\))Tj
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(Rosemary Butler \(Labour, Newport West\))Tj
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(Officials)Tj
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(Julia Annand \(Committee Clerk\))Tj
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(Stephen Thomas \(Deputy Committee Clerk\) )Tj
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(Adam Peat \(Director, Local Government, Housing and Culture\))Tj
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(Margaret Evans \(Head, Arts, Lottery and Sport Division\))Tj
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(Gwyn Griffiths \(Office of the Counsel General\))Tj
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(Prys Davies \(Culture, Sport, and Welsh Language Disivion\))Tj
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(Mary Davies \(Culture, Sport, and Welsh Language Disivion\))Tj
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(Also in attendance)Tj
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(Euryn Ogwen Williams \(Committee\222s Expert Adviser\))Tj
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(Declarations of interest: )Tj
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(Rhodri Glyn Thomas - member of the shadow board for Cardiff\222s bid for\
European )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(Capital of Culture 2008.)Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
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(Rosemary Butler- Chair of the shadow board of the National Waterfront Mu\
seum in )Tj
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(Swansea.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 400.41849 Tm
(l)Tj
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( )Tj
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(Dafydd Wigley - wife is a prominent member of the arts community in Wale\
s.)Tj
ET
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( )Tj
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(Introduction)Tj
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
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(The Chair informed members that the Equal Opportunities Committee will c\
onsider the )Tj
T*
(Welsh Language Review on 6 March and that Delyth Evans will be reporting\
back to the )Tj
T*
(Culture Committee. )Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
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(The Legislation Committee would be holding a lunchtime seminar on drafti\
ng legislation )Tj
T*
(following the Culture Committee meeting. )Tj
ET
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(The Chair formally accepted a petition presented to him by Cymdeithas yr\
Iaith calling )Tj
T*
(for a new Welsh Language Act. )Tj
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( )Tj
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(Item 1: Review of the Welsh Language:)Tj
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(Paper: CC 5-02 \(p.1-2a\) )Tj
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(The Chair introduced the item. He said that the Committee had three pape\
rs before them: an )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(analysis of the evidence received, a position paper which he had drawn u\
p in conjunction with )Tj
T*
(the Expert Adviser and a paper which attempted to define bilingualism. H\
e asked members for )Tj
T*
(comments on where they felt their priorities lay. )Tj
ET
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( )Tj
ET
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/TT0 1 Tf
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( )Tj
ET
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/TT0 1 Tf
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(The following points were made in discussion: )Tj
ET
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(Status of the language/new legislation:)Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
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(There were conflicting views about the need for new legislation. Some me\
mbers were in )Tj
T*
(favour of new legislation, or at least an amendment to the Welsh Languag\
e Act 1993. )Tj
T*
(Other members felt that the calls for new legislation had been limited t\
o a few pressure )Tj
T*
(groups and going down the path towards new legislation would be a distra\
ction from the )Tj
T*
(Committee\222s other priorities.)Tj
ET
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( )Tj
ET
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(Some members expressed concern about the cost impositions of new legisla\
tion.)Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
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(The Minister stated that costs were a relevant factor and that costly pr\
oposals would )Tj
T*
(have to be offset from elsewhere in the budget. She added that moves wer\
e afoot for )Tj
T*
(Housing Associations to be brought under the provisions of the Welsh Lan\
guage Act )Tj
T*
(1993 and that consideration was also being given to the public utilities\
. She asked the )Tj
T*
(Committee to defer any decision on possible new legislation until she ha\
d brought )Tj
T*
(forward these proposals.)Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
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(For future meetings, Dafydd Wigley AM agreed to produce a paper setting \
out possible )Tj
T*
(amendments to the existing Act; Gwyn Griffiths was asked to prepare a pa\
per on how )Tj
T*
(the existing legislation could be better utilised.)Tj
ET
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(Other issues:)Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
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(One member expressed concern about the standardisation of the language a\
nd the )Tj
T*
(need to make the language more user-friendly. The Chair reminded members\
of the )Tj
T*
(work of Canolfan Bedwyr, Bangor, an important centre working in the fiel\
d of )Tj
T*
(standardisation. The creation of further bodies, such as the language st\
andardisation )Tj
T*
(academy suggested by Professor Colin Williams, also caused some concern.\
Some )Tj
T*
(Members favoured strengthening the activities of the Welsh Language Boar\
d rather than )Tj
T*
(establishing new bodies.)Tj
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(l)Tj
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(Members commented on the need to retain the cross-party goodwill on the \
language. It )Tj
T*
(was also suggested that many of the initiatives that could be taken in o\
rder to sustain )Tj
T*
(the language eg in the fields of nursery education and planning, lay out\
side the remit of )Tj
T*
(this Committee. The Cabinet had accepted that the report would impact ac\
ross the )Tj
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(whole of the Assembly.)Tj
ET
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
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(There was some discussion about in and out migration. The Chair reminded\
members of )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(a key piece of evidence from the Pembrokeshire National Park Authority w\
hich pointed )Tj
T*
(to the need to create sustainable communities. The Committee agreed that\
this was an )Tj
T*
(important concept which should be reflected in its recommendations. An i\
mproved )Tj
T*
(transport infrastructure was also noted as a crucial factor that would b\
enefit the )Tj
T*
(language.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
ET
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(There was also some discussion about the lack of affordable housing in h\
eartland areas. )Tj
T*
(Members mentioned the lack of available statistics and information on th\
e present )Tj
T*
(housing stock; the Chair felt that an audit of housing stock would be us\
eful.)Tj
ET
EMC
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(Paper: CC 5-02 \(p.2a\))Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 512.21848 Tm
(The Chair introduced the paper. He said that this was an evolving positi\
on paper that )Tj
T*
(attempted to set out some ideas for the future of the language.)Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 459.61848 Tm
(The following comments were noted in discussion:)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 423.81848 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 423.81848 Tm
(Some concern was expressed about the idea of establishing a language pow\
erhouse to )Tj
T*
(initiate a national strategy. Members felt that it should be the Nationa\
l Assembly's )Tj
T*
(responsibility, in conjunction with the Welsh Language Board, to develop\
such a )Tj
T*
(strategy. )Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 356.61848 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 356.61848 Tm
(The concept of "Cymanfa Bro",)Tj
/TT2 1 Tf
( )Tj
/TT0 1 Tf
(to bring together and co-ordinate other community )Tj
0 -1.20148 TD
(partnerships, was also questioned. It was suggested that the roles of th\
e Mentrau Iaith )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(or the local authorities could be extended to include this work. )Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 306.19781 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 306.19781 Tm
(One member also questioned the value of creating an Internet Forum or Pe\
rmanent )Tj
T*
(Network for all bodies working on Welsh language projects. More informat\
ion was )Tj
T*
(requested about this proposal.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 255.79781 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 255.79781 Tm
(There was consensus on the importance of the Mentrau Iaith and a feeling\
that their )Tj
T*
(work should be strengthened. The Chair also suggested that Carmarthenshi\
re County )Tj
T*
(Council\222s language strategy provided a possible blueprint for local a\
uthority language )Tj
T*
(planning.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 169.59781 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 169.59781 Tm
(Members had reservations about the concept of a community-based fund to \
fund new )Tj
T*
(initiatives in the Welsh language. Some felt that such a concept was div\
isive and would )Tj
T*
(generate hostility, others agreed that a fund for community businesses f\
or the whole of )Tj
T*
(Wales would be welcomed. Members felt that organisations such as the Wel\
sh )Tj
T*
(Development Agency, ELWa and the Wales Tourist Board should take the lea\
d in this )Tj
T*
(particular field.)Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
10 48.16132 m
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/TT1 1 Tf
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(Paper: CC 5-02 \(p.2b\))Tj
ET
EMC
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(This paper attempted a definition of bilingualism. The following comment\
s were noted in )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(discussion:)Tj
ET
EMC
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BT
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(Members expressed concerns about the proposed definition. They accepted \
that a )Tj
T*
(definition was required, but felt that the definition before them was lo\
ng-winded and )Tj
T*
(academic, concentrated too much on educational aspects of bilingualism a\
nd did not )Tj
T*
(place enough emphasis on bilingualism as a matter of equal opportunities\
. The concepts )Tj
T*
(of gradualism and increasing numbers of speakers and opportunities for l\
anguage use )Tj
T*
(were put forward as ones which could be used in any definition. )Tj
ET
EMC
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BT
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 590.59781 Tm
(The Chair asked Members to submit their own definition of bilingualism t\
o the Clerk in )Tj
T*
(time for the next meeting. )Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 537.99782 Tm
(Members requested that they move on to a discussion on the Committee\222\
s forward work )Tj
T*
(programme.)Tj
ET
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(Item 4: Committee\222s Forward Work Programme and Other Committees work \
)Tj
ET
10 466.9613 m
192.812 466.9613 l
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(programmes \226 CC-5-02\(p.5\))Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 432.79781 Tm
(The following comments were noted in discussion:)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
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(There were conflicting views on the amount of time the Committee should \
spend on its )Tj
T*
(forthcoming review of sport. Some members felt that the review should be\
allocated the )Tj
T*
(same amount of time as that of the Welsh language, others felt it should\
be given less )Tj
T*
(time.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
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EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 329.79781 Tm
(There was concern that the meeting on sport scheduled for 17 July was be\
ing held at )Tj
T*
(the National Botanic Gardens rather than a sporting venue.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 296.19781 Tm
(One member made a plea for the Welsh language report to be signed off at\
a )Tj
T*
(Wednesday meeting rather than on a Thursday afternoon.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
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(l)Tj
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EMC
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BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 262.59781 Tm
(The Minister wanted some breathing space before beginning the next polic\
y review. She )Tj
T*
(felt that the July meetings could be taken up by routine Committee busin\
ess such as the )Tj
T*
(budget discussion and presentation from the Assembly Sponsored Public Bo\
dies. The )Tj
T*
(Minister also thought that two discussion sessions were required on budg\
et priorities )Tj
T*
(and on the Committee\222s annual report.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 178.59781 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 178.59781 Tm
(The Chair concluded by saying that the timetable would be amended to ref\
lect Members )Tj
T*
(concerns and that the 17 July meeting would be held at a sporting venue.\
)Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 125.99782 Tm
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
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( )Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
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( )Tj
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EMC
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14 0 0 14 10 713.17731 Tm
(Item 2: Minister\222s Report \226 CC-5-02\(p.3\))Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 676.99782 Tm
(The Minister updated the Committee on the progress of restructuring taki\
ng place in the Arts )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(Council for Wales. Sybil Crouch has been re-appointed as the Chair for a\
nother year to see )Tj
T*
(through the restructuring process, after which the post will be advertis\
ed.)Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 607.59781 Tm
(The following points were noted in discussion:)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 571.79781 Tm
(The Minister was urged to give consideration to the matter of the deaths\
of divers at )Tj
T*
(Dorothea Quarry. The Minister responded that she had had a productive me\
eting at )Tj
T*
(Caernarfon recently which addressed the issue of the safety as part of t\
he setting up of )Tj
T*
(the Outdoor Activities Awareness Forum. The committee will receive an up\
date on )Tj
T*
(progress in the next Minister's Report. )Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
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/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 468.79781 Tm
(There was some discussion about the possibility of CADW issues being tra\
nsferred to )Tj
T*
(the remit of the Culture Committee. The Minister said that if the Commit\
tee felt strongly )Tj
T*
(about this then its should write to the First Minister. She asked member\
s to wait until )Tj
T*
(after the publication of the report on the Quinquennial review of the Ro\
yal Commission )Tj
T*
(on Ancient and Historical Monuments.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 384.79781 Tm
(In reply to a question about the transfer of the Welsh Art Collection, t\
he Minister said )Tj
T*
(that the collection had been distributed among many public institutions \
in Wales, )Tj
T*
(including colleges and hospitals. When asked why Turner House in Penarth\
had not )Tj
T*
(been included, the Minister replied that decisions on the exact location\
s were made by )Tj
T*
(the Arts Council of Wales.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 281.79781 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
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BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 50 281.79781 Tm
(There was some discussion about the National Botanical Garden\222s busin\
ess plan. The )Tj
T*
(Minister stated that The Garden was still in the process of gathering th\
e relevant )Tj
T*
(statistics and finalising its business plan. Both parties were keen to m\
ove ahead with )Tj
T*
(this project but that would only be done on the basis of sound visitor f\
igure projections )Tj
T*
(and a critical path plan of its capital programme. )Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
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(l)Tj
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( )Tj
ET
EMC
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BT
/TT0 1 Tf
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(The Minister said that she had again drawn the National Lottery Commissi\
on\222s attention )Tj
T*
(about the need to increase the share of Lottery monies spent in Wales.)Tj
ET
EMC
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( )Tj
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EMC
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( )Tj
ET
EMC
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10 52.9613 m
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BT
/TT1 1 Tf
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(Item 3: Welsh Language Schemes Public Bodies Order 2002)Tj
ET
EMC
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(The Minister sought the views of the Committee on the proposal to includ\
e 17 public bodies in )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(the Assembly Subordinate Legislation under Section 6 \(1\)\(0\) of the W\
elsh Language Act 1993. )Tj
T*
(The list included 12 new public bodies such as the General Medical and G\
eneral Dental )Tj
T*
(Councils, the Childrens' Commissioner for Wales and other bodies whose n\
ames have )Tj
T*
(changed such as the Care Council for Wales. The list will be discussed i\
n a plenary session in )Tj
T*
(late May. The Minister concluded by saying that that the next round of c\
onsultations would )Tj
T*
(include Housing Associations and that she would be seeking a legal view \
about the possible )Tj
T*
(inclusion of the privatised utilities.)Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 10 595.39781 Tm
(The following points were noted in discussion:)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
7 0 0 7 35.713 559.59781 Tm
(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
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(In reply to a question about which body had objected to being included i\
n the Order, )Tj
T*
(officials replied that this was Consignia, the plc which has replaced th\
e Post Office. The )Tj
T*
(objection had been referred to the Office of the Counsel General for fur\
ther advice. The )Tj
T*
(Minister agreed to include an update on this in her next Minister\222s r\
eport.)Tj
ET
EMC
/Lbl <>BDC
BT
/T1_0 1 Tf
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(l)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( )Tj
ET
EMC
/LBody <>BDC
BT
/TT0 1 Tf
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(Officials also agreed to check whether the University of Glamorgan had b\
een included in )Tj
T*
(a previous order.)Tj
ET
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(Item 5: Minutes of the meeting held on 6 February in Pontyberem \226 CC-\
5-02\(min\))Tj
ET
EMC
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(These were approved without amendment.)Tj
ET
EMC
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BT
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( )Tj
ET
EMC
/P <>BDC
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/TT1 1 Tf
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(Committee Secretariat March 2002)Tj
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