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(Adfywio Bae Caerdydd)Tj
-2.02699 -1.2 Td
(The Regeneration of Cardiff Bay)Tj
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(Dydd Iau 18 Gorffennaf 2002)Tj
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(Thursday 18 July 2002)Tj
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(Aelodau o\222r Cynulliad yn bresennol:)Tj
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(Dafydd Wigley \(Cadeirydd\), Eleanor Burnham, Alun Cairns, )Tj
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(Janet Davies, Janice Gregory, Alison Halford, Ann Jones, Helen Mary Jone\
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(Swyddogion yn bresennol:)Tj
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( )Tj
/T1_2 1 Tf
(Syr John Bourn, Archwilydd Cyffredinol Cymru; Frank Grogan, Swyddfa )Tj
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(Archwilio Genedlaethol Cymru; David Powell, Swyddog Cydymffurfio Cynulli\
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(Tystion: Syr Jon Shortridge, Ysgrifennydd Parhaol Cynulliad Cenedlaethol\
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(Prif Swyddog Cyllid Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.)Tj
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(Assembly Members present: Dafydd Wigley \(Chair\), Eleanor Burnham, Alun\
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(Janice Gregory, Alison Halford, Ann Jones, Helen Mary Jones, Val Lloyd.)Tj
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(Officials present: Sir John Bourn, Auditor General for Wales; Frank Grog\
an, National Audit Office )Tj
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(Wales; David Powell, National Assembly for Wales Compliance Officer.)Tj
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(Witnesses: Sir Jon Shortridge, Permanent Secretary, National Assembly fo\
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(Dechreuodd y cyfarfod am 2 p.m.)Tj
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(The meeting began at 2 p.m.)Tj
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([171] )Tj
/T1_2 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Croesawaf bawb i\222r )Tj
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(cyfarfod hwn o\222r Pwyllgor Archwilio.)Tj
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([171] )Tj
/T1_2 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( I welcome everyone to )Tj
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(this meeting of the Audit Committee. )Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(I draw visitors\222 attention to the fact that )Tj
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(simultaneous translation is available. Members )Tj
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(and witnesses have the right to speak in Welsh or )Tj
T*
(English. If anyone is hard of hearing, you may )Tj
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(find that you can follow proceedings more easily )Tj
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(by listening through the headsets.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 604.17555 Tm
(Tynnaf sylw ymwelwyr at y ffaith bod )Tj
T*
(gwasanaeth cyfieithu ar y pryd ar gael. Mae gan )Tj
T*
(aelodau a thystion hawl i siarad yn Gymraeg neu )Tj
T*
(Saesneg. Os oes unrhyw un yn drwm eu clyw, )Tj
T*
(efallai y canfyddwch y gallwch ddilyn y )Tj
T*
(drafodaeth yn haws wrth wrando drwy\222r )Tj
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(clustffonau.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(I formally welcome our guests from the Scottish )Tj
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(Parliament: Andrew Welsh MSP, the convenor )Tj
T*
(of its Audit Committee, who was a colleague of )Tj
T*
(mine in Westminster for about 20 years; Bob )Tj
T*
(Black, the Auditor General for Scotland; and )Tj
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(Se\341n Wixted, the committee\222s deputy clerk. I )Tj
T*
(hope that you will find our inquiries and )Tj
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(procedures of some interest.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Estynnaf groeso ffurfiol i\222n gwesteion o Senedd )Tj
T*
(yr Alban: Andrew Welsh ASA, cynullydd ei )Tj
T*
(Phwyllgor Archwilio, a fu\222n gyd-aelod i mi yn )Tj
T*
(San Steffan am ryw 20 mlynedd; Bob Black, )Tj
T*
(Archwilydd Cyffredinol yr Alban; a Se\341n )Tj
T*
(Wixted, dirprwy glerc y pwyllgor. Gobeithiaf y )Tj
T*
(bydd ein hymholiadau a\222n gweithdrefnau o )Tj
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(ddiddordeb ichi.)Tj
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(Mae Jocelyn Davies yn ymddiheuro na all fod )Tj
T*
(yma. Bu\222n derbyn triniaeth yn yr ysbyty, ac yr )Tj
T*
(wyf yn siwr yr hoffai\222r Pwyllgor ddymuno )Tj
T*
(adferiad llawn a buan iddi. Mae Helen Mary )Tj
T*
(Jones yn eilio ar ei rhan. Croeso i\222r Pwyllgor, )Tj
T*
(Helen. Nid oes ymddiheuriadau eraill.)Tj
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 324.17555 Tm
(Jocelyn Davies apologises that she cannot be )Tj
T*
(present. She has been undergoing hospital )Tj
T*
(treatment, and I am sure that the Committee )Tj
T*
(would like to wish her a full and speedy )Tj
T*
(recovery. Helen Mary Jones is substituting on )Tj
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(her behalf. Welcome to the Committee, Helen. )Tj
T*
(There are no other apologies.)Tj
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(Yr ydym yn dychwelyd at bwnc bae Caerdydd, y )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(bu inni gymryd tystiolaeth yn ei gylch eisoes. Yn )Tj
T*
(y sesiwn cymryd tystiolaeth ar 16 Mai 2002 ar )Tj
T*
(adroddiad Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol )Tj
T*
(Cymru, \221Parhau i Adfywio Bae Caerdydd\222, fe )Tj
T*
(gofiwch inni benderfynu gwahodd yr )Tj
T*
(Ysgrifennydd Parhaol yn \364l ger ein bron heddiw )Tj
T*
(i\222n diweddaru ar y sefyllfa. Croesawaf Syr Jon )Tj
T*
(Shortridge\227llongyfarchiadau ichi ar yr )Tj
T*
(anrhydedd\227a David Richards yn \364l i\222r Pwyllgor. )Tj
T*
(A wnewch chi gyflwyno eich hunain, os )Tj
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(gwelwch yn dda?)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 746.97556 Tm
(We return to the issue of Cardiff bay, on which )Tj
T*
(we have already taken evidence. In the evidence-)Tj
T*
(taking session on 16 May 2002 on the National )Tj
T*
(Audit Office Wales report, \221Continuing the )Tj
T*
(Regeneration of Cardiff Bay\222, you will remember )Tj
T*
(that we decided to invite the Permanent Secretary )Tj
T*
(back to the Committee today to update us on the )Tj
T*
(position. I welcome Sir Jon )Tj
T*
(Shortridge\227congratulations to you on that )Tj
T*
(honour\227and David Richards back to the )Tj
T*
(Committee. Will you please introduce )Tj
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(yourselves? )Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I am Jon Shortridge, the )Tj
T*
(Permanent Secretary of the National Assembly )Tj
T*
(for Wales.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 312.89894 531.37555 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Jon Shortridge wyf fi, )Tj
T*
(Ysgrifennydd Parhaol Cynulliad Cenedlaethol )Tj
T*
(Cymru.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 466.97556 Tm
(Mr Richards:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I am David Richards, the National )Tj
T*
(Assembly for Wales\222s principal finance officer.)Tj
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(Mr Richards:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( David Richards wyf fi, prif )Tj
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(swyddog cyllid Cynulliad Cenedlaethol Cymru.)Tj
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([172] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I briefly seek clarification )Tj
T*
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T*
(16 May, you indicated to this Committee that )Tj
T*
(you would be prepared to make available to us )Tj
T*
(copies of all correspondence relating to this )Tj
T*
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T*
(42 and 43 on page 18 of the transcript of that )Tj
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T*
(letter of 24 June, which was sent to the clerk. Do )Tj
T*
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([172] )Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
( Gofynnaf am eglurhad yn )Tj
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T*
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( That is certainly my )Tj
T*
(understanding, Chair. There has certainly been )Tj
T*
(no suggestion that we should be withholding )Tj
T*
(anything from the Committee, so I believe that I )Tj
T*
(can give you that assurance. However, I will )Tj
T*
(double-check.)Tj
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( Dyna fy nealltwriaeth i, yn )Tj
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(Pwyllgor, felly credaf y gallaf roi\222r sicrwydd )Tj
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(hwnnw ichi. Fodd bynnag, fe wiriaf hynny.)Tj
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( I sent to the clerk this )Tj
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( I thought that it would be )Tj
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(mailed across. I have a copy here if you need it.)Tj
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(I want to establish a couple of other points of fact )Tj
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( Yes. I have certainly )Tj
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(have received.)Tj
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( Is that the letter that we )Tj
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( Thank you. Thirdly, you )Tj
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( Certainly. Once I had heard )Tj
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( That request remains in )Tj
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T*
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(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
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( Mae\222r cais hwnnw\222n dal )Tj
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T*
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( Yn sicr, cytunaf \342 phopeth )Tj
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(siarad ar y ff\364n gyda phrif weithredwr Caerdydd )Tj
T*
(ac, fel y dywedais, yr wyf wedi ysgrifennu\222r )Tj
T*
(llythyr hwn. Efallai y dylwn gywiro un peth a )Tj
T*
(ddywedasoch. Nid yw prif weithredwr cyngor )Tj
T*
(Caerdydd yn swyddog cyfrifo yn yr ystyr )Tj
T*
(gonfensiynol. Aiff hynny yn \364l at bwynt a )Tj
T*
(wneuthum y tro diwethaf imi ddod gerbron y )Tj
T*
(Pwyllgor hwn. Mae fy mherthynas \342 phrif )Tj
T*
(weithredwr Caerdydd yn wahanol iawn i\222r )Tj
T*
(berthynas sydd gennyf \342 phrif weithredwr corff )Tj
T*
(cyhoeddus a noddir gan y Cynulliad. Ni allaf )Tj
T*
(orfodi fy ewyllys dros brif weithredwr awdurdod )Tj
T*
(lleol yn yr un modd ag y gallaf yn achos corff a )Tj
T*
(noddir. Mae hynny\222n ystyriaeth berthnasol felly.)Tj
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(Going back to the main thrust of your question, )Tj
T*
(yes, I am very clear about what I should be )Tj
T*
(doing. As I said, I have written to the chief )Tj
T*
(executive explaining to him the position that you )Tj
T*
(have taken and setting out my views on how this )Tj
T*
(matter should now be resolved. I have sought to )Tj
T*
(do it in a helpful way, and certainly in such a )Tj
T*
(way that, if there is any misunderstanding of the )Tj
T*
(source of the problem that we have, that can be )Tj
T*
(cleared up. I will explain in a minute just how I )Tj
T*
(have sought to do that. )Tj
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 373.17555 Tm
(Gan ddychwelyd at brif ergyd eich cwestiwn, )Tj
T*
(ydwyf, yr wyf yn glir iawn ynghylch beth y )Tj
T*
(dylwn fod yn ei wneud. Fel y dywedais, yr wyf )Tj
T*
(wedi ysgrifennu at y prif weithredwr yn egluro )Tj
T*
(eich safbwynt chi iddo ac yn rhoi fy marn i ar sut )Tj
T*
(y dylid datrys y mater hwn yn awr. Yr wyf wedi )Tj
T*
(ceisio gwneud hynny mewn ffordd fuddiol, ac yn )Tj
T*
(sicr yn y fath fodd fel, os oes unrhyw )Tj
T*
(gamddealltwriaeth ynghylch ffynhonnell y )Tj
T*
(broblem sydd gennym, y gellir clirio hynny. )Tj
T*
(Egluraf mewn munud sut yn union yr wyf wedi )Tj
T*
(ceisio gwneud hynny.)Tj
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(However, in terms of process, the chief executive )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(received the letter on 5 July, I imagine, and I am )Tj
T*
(due to see him next Wednesday, when we will )Tj
T*
(discuss a range of matters, including this one. I )Tj
T*
(certainly hope that that meeting will enable me to )Tj
T*
(bring this to a satisfactory resolution. If it does )Tj
T*
(not, then I will have to consider invoking the )Tj
T*
(dispute resolution arrangements, which are set )Tj
T*
(out in the section 165 agreement. Those )Tj
T*
(arrangements essentially go from a reasonably )Tj
T*
(informal mediation through to a more formal )Tj
T*
(arbitration. I want to avoid that if I can, and that )Tj
T*
(is why I have been seeking to engage the council )Tj
T*
(in dialogue, not just with me but also with )Tj
T*
(colleagues in the National Audit Office. I )Tj
T*
(certainly hope that the proposition that I have put )Tj
T*
(in my letter will be one which enables the )Tj
T*
(council to understand that what I am seeking is, )Tj
T*
(really, for it to comply with the )Tj
T*
(contract\227comply with the section 165 )Tj
T*
(agreement\227as opposed to imposing a second set )Tj
T*
(of auditors on it. That is the distinction that I )Tj
T*
(have sought to make as a way to bring this issue )Tj
T*
(to a satisfactory conclusion.)Tj
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(Fodd bynnag, o ran y broses, derbyniodd y prif )Tj
T*
(weithredwr y llythyr ar 5 Gorffennaf, fe dybiaf, )Tj
T*
(ac yr wyf i fod i\222w weld ddydd Mercher nesaf, )Tj
T*
(pryd y trafodwn amrediad o faterion, gan )Tj
T*
(gynnwys hwn. Yn sicr, gobeithiaf y gwnaiff y )Tj
T*
(cyfarfod hwnnw fy ngalluogi i ddatrys y mater )Tj
T*
(hwn yn foddhaol. Os na wnaiff, yna bydd yn )Tj
T*
(rhaid imi ystyried gweithredu\222r trefniadau datrys )Tj
T*
(anghydfod, a amlinellir yng nghytundeb adran )Tj
T*
(165. Yn y b\364n, mae\222r trefniadau hynny\222n )Tj
T*
(amrywio o gyfryngu gweddol anffurfiol i )Tj
T*
(gyflafareddu mwy ffurfiol. Mae arnaf eisiau )Tj
T*
(osgoi hynny os gallaf, a dyna pam yr wyf wedi )Tj
T*
(bod yn ceisio cael y cyngor i ymuno mewn )Tj
T*
(trafodaeth, nid yn unig \342 mi ond hefyd \342 )Tj
T*
(chydweithwyr yn y Swyddfa Archwilio )Tj
T*
(Genedlaethol. Yn sicr, gobeithiaf y bydd y )Tj
T*
(cynnig yr wyf wedi\222i roi yn fy llythyr yn un a )Tj
T*
(fydd yn galluogi\222r cyngor i ddeall mai\222r hyn yr )Tj
T*
(wyf yn ei geisio, mewn gwirionedd, yw iddo )Tj
T*
(gydymffurfio \342\222r contract\227cydymffurfio \342 )Tj
T*
(chytundeb adran 165\227yn hytrach na gorfodi ail )Tj
T*
(set o archwilwyr arno. Dyna\222r gwahaniaeth yr )Tj
T*
(wyf wedi ceisio\222i nodi er mwyn datrys y mater )Tj
T*
(hwn yn foddhaol.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 312.97556 Tm
([180] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I did not quite understand )Tj
T*
(what you were saying, Mr Shortridge, but that is )Tj
T*
(my fault, not yours. You do not have )Tj
T*
(responsibility or power over the chief executive )Tj
T*
(to make him open his books to either you or the )Tj
T*
(Auditor General, and you are the accounting )Tj
T*
(officer for money given by the Welsh Assembly )Tj
T*
(to the harbour authority?)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([180] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Ni ddeallais yn iawn beth )Tj
T*
(yr oeddech yn ei ddweud, Mr Shortridge, ond fy )Tj
T*
(mai i yw hynny, nid eich bai chi. Nid oes )Tj
T*
(gennych gyfrifoldeb na grym dros y prif )Tj
T*
(weithredwr i wneud iddo agor ei lyfrau i chi nac )Tj
T*
(i\222r Archwilydd Cyffredinol, a chi yw\222r swyddog )Tj
T*
(cyfrifo dros arian a roddir gan Gynulliad Cymru )Tj
T*
(i\222r awdurdod harbwr?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(I have an agreement, and I )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(can seek to invoke that agreement. There are )Tj
T*
(procedures in place to ensure that that agreement )Tj
T*
(is satisfactorily implemented. I can certainly do )Tj
T*
(everything in my power to ensure that the )Tj
T*
(agreement is implemented and, to the extent that )Tj
T*
(there are problems in its implementation, that I )Tj
T*
(invoke the dispute resolution arrangements. The )Tj
T*
(point that I was making is that there is a )Tj
T*
(difference. Were this the accounting officer of an )Tj
T*
(ASPB, who has a formal accounting officer )Tj
T*
(relationship with me, I would be in a much )Tj
T*
(stronger position to assert my will over that )Tj
T*
(person and, in effect, instruct them, than I do in )Tj
T*
(the case of the chief executive of a )Tj
T*
(democratically elected local authority.)Tj
ET
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mae gennyf gytundeb, a )Tj
T*
(gallaf weithredu\222r cytundeb hwnnw os y mynnaf. )Tj
T*
(Mae gweithdrefnau wedi\222u sefydlu i sicrhau y )Tj
T*
(gweithredir y cytundeb hwnnw\222n foddhaol. Yn )Tj
T*
(sicr gallaf wneud popeth yn fy ngallu i sicrhau y )Tj
T*
(gweithredir y cytundeb hwnnw ac, i\222r graddau )Tj
T*
(bod problemau wrth ei weithredu, fy mod yn troi )Tj
T*
(at y trefniadau datrys anghydfod. Y pwynt yr )Tj
T*
(oeddwn yn ei wneud oedd bod yna wahaniaeth. )Tj
T*
(Pe bai hwn yn swyddog cyfrifon corff cyhoeddus )Tj
T*
(a noddir gan y Cynulliad, a chanddo berthynas )Tj
T*
(swyddog cyfrifon ffurfiol \342 mi, byddwn mewn )Tj
T*
(sefyllfa lawer cryfach i orfodi fy ewyllys ar y )Tj
T*
(person hwnnw ac, i bob diben, ei gyfarwyddo, )Tj
T*
(nag yr wyf gyda phrif weithredwr awdurdod lleol )Tj
T*
(a etholwyd yn ddemocrataidd. )Tj
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([181] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Alison Halford: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(I understand that, but you )Tj
T*
(are the Permanent Secretary and you were the )Tj
T*
(Permanent Secretary at the time when the )Tj
T*
(harbour authority came into being. We know )Tj
T*
(very well, from having taken evidence )Tj
T*
(previously, that this is a unique set-up. So you )Tj
T*
(could argue that, as the guardian of public money )Tj
T*
(in Wales, you have allowed a system to be set up )Tj
T*
(which gives you precious little control over how )Tj
T*
(money is being spent. Could I have an answer to )Tj
T*
(that?)Tj
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([181] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Deallaf hynny, ond chi )Tj
T*
(yw\222r Ysgrifennydd Parhaol a chi oedd yr )Tj
T*
(Ysgrifennydd Parhaol pan ddaeth yr awdurdod )Tj
T*
(harbwr i fodolaeth. Gwyddom yn iawn, o glywed )Tj
T*
(tystiolaeth o\222r blaen, fod hon yn sefyllfa )Tj
T*
(unigryw. Felly, gellid dadlau eich bod chi, fel )Tj
T*
(gwarcheidwad arian cyhoeddus yng Nghymru, )Tj
T*
(wedi caniat\341u sefydlu system nad yw\222n rhoi fawr )Tj
T*
(ddim o reolaeth ichi dros sut y caiff arian ei )Tj
T*
(wario. A gaf fi ateb i hynny?)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Yes. I think that I would )Tj
T*
(refer you to the first page of Sir John Bourn\222s )Tj
T*
(letter, which says,)Tj
ET
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 265.37555 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Cewch. Yr wyf yn meddwl )Tj
T*
(y byddwn yn eich cyfeirio at dudalen gyntaf )Tj
T*
(llythyr Syr John Bourn, sy\222n dweud,)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(\221When the agreement was being prepared, )Tj
T*
(Assembly officials consulted the National Audit )Tj
T*
(Office about this issue and ensured that the )Tj
T*
(section 165 agreement included what was then a )Tj
T*
(standard formula for providing the Comptroller )Tj
T*
(and Auditor General and the National Audit )Tj
T*
(Office access to UK bodies receiving public )Tj
T*
(funds.\222)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 200.97556 Tm
(\221Pan oedd y cytundeb yn cael ei baratoi, )Tj
T*
(ymgynghorodd swyddogion y Cynulliad \342\222r )Tj
T*
(Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol ynglyn \342\222r )Tj
T*
(mater hwn a sicrhau bod cytundeb adran 165 yn )Tj
T*
(cynnwys fformiwla, a oedd yn safonol ar y pryd, )Tj
T*
(fel byddai\222r Rheolydd ac Archwilydd )Tj
T*
(Cyffredinol a\222r Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol )Tj
T*
(yn cael mynediad i gyrff sy\222n cael cyllid )Tj
T*
(cyhoeddus.\222)Tj
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(Therefore, I would take the view that, throughout )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(this process, we have acted responsibly, )Tj
T*
(professionally, using precedent, and what we )Tj
T*
(have found ourselves in is, to the best of my )Tj
T*
(knowledge and certainly in my experience, a )Tj
T*
(totally unprecedented situation whereby I have a )Tj
T*
(contract and there has been a difference of view, )Tj
T*
(in this case with the local authority, as to what it )Tj
T*
(means.)Tj
ET
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(Felly, fy marn i fyddai ein bod, drwy gydol y )Tj
T*
(broses hon, wedi gweithredu\222n gyfrifol, yn )Tj
T*
(broffesiynol, gan ddilyn cynsail, a bod yr hyn yr )Tj
T*
(ydym wedi ein cael ein hunain ynddo, i\222m )Tj
T*
(gwybodaeth i ac yn sicr yn fy mhrofiad i, yn )Tj
T*
(sefyllfa gwbl unigryw lle mae gennyf fi gontract )Tj
T*
(ac y bu gwahaniaeth barn, gyda\222r awdurdod lleol )Tj
T*
(yn yr achos hwn, ynghylch beth y mae\222n ei olygu.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 581.77556 Tm
([182] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Do you know how many )Tj
T*
(times the harbour authority has met since it came )Tj
T*
(into being?)Tj
ET
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 581.77556 Tm
([182] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( A wyddoch sawl gwaith y )Tj
T*
(mae\222r awdurdod harbwr wedi cyfarfod ers ei )Tj
T*
(sefydlu?)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 517.37555 Tm
(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(No, I do not.)Tj
ET
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 517.37555 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Na, ni wn.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 486.57556 Tm
([183] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(How much money have )Tj
T*
(we given to the harbour authority since it was set )Tj
T*
(up?)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 486.57556 Tm
([183] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Faint o arian yr ydym ni )Tj
T*
(wedi\222i roi i\222r awdurdod harbwr ers ei sefydlu?)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 422.17555 Tm
(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I cannot give you an )Tj
T*
(accurate figure for that either.)Tj
ET
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 422.17555 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Ni allaf roi ffigur manwl )Tj
T*
(gywir ichi ar gyfer hynny ychwaith.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 374.57556 Tm
([184] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Are we talking about )Tj
T*
(millions of pounds?)Tj
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 374.57556 Tm
([184] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( A ydym yn s\364n am )Tj
T*
(filiynau o bunnoedd?)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 326.97556 Tm
(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Yes, we are talking many )Tj
T*
(tens of millions of pounds.)Tj
ET
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 326.97556 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Ydym, yr ydym yn s\364n am )Tj
T*
(lawer o ddegau o filiynau o bunnoedd.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([185] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(The point is that, if this )Tj
T*
(clause was being invoked and followed, as was )Tj
T*
(the intention, and as we believe is the legally )Tj
T*
(binding position, you would be getting access to )Tj
T*
(this information. Therefore, the question that )Tj
T*
(arises is, if the procedures for arbitration are laid )Tj
T*
(down in the agreement, and we have taken the )Tj
T*
(best part of a year to get to this position, why )Tj
T*
(have we not used those procedures of arbitration )Tj
T*
(before now?)Tj
ET
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([185] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Y pwynt yw, pe bai\222r )Tj
T*
(cymal hwn yn weithredol ac yn cael ei arddel, fel )Tj
T*
(a fwriadwyd, ac fel y credwn ni sy\222n )Tj
T*
(rhwymedigaeth gyfreithiol, byddech yn cael )Tj
T*
(gweld y wybodaeth hon. Felly, y cwestiwn sy\222n )Tj
T*
(codi yw, os yw\222r gweithdrefnau cyflafareddu )Tj
T*
(wedi\222u hamlinellu yn y cytundeb, a\222n bod ni )Tj
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(wedi cymryd bron i flwyddyn i gyrraedd y )Tj
T*
(sefyllfa hon, pam nad ydym wedi defnyddio\222r )Tj
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(gweithdrefnau cyflafareddu hynny cyn hyn?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(I think that there are two )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(points. The first thing to say is what I explained )Tj
T*
(to the Committee last time, that, in terms of )Tj
T*
(Assembly officials getting access to all the )Tj
T*
(information and records that they require to do )Tj
T*
(their monitoring work, we have never had any )Tj
T*
(problem with that. Therefore, as I explained last )Tj
T*
(time, we as officials do not have any evidence )Tj
T*
(that there has been any misuse or )Tj
T*
(misappropriation of Assembly funds. We have )Tj
T*
(very elaborate procedures in place, and they have )Tj
T*
(been working. The issue, and I will not seek to )Tj
T*
(understate it, is obtaining access for the National )Tj
T*
(Audit Office so that it can satisfy itself, )Tj
T*
(independently and separately, that the way in )Tj
T*
(which the procedures have been operating and )Tj
T*
(the judgments that we have been making are )Tj
T*
(accurate. That is the issue.)Tj
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Credaf fod yno ddau )Tj
T*
(bwynt. Y peth cyntaf i\222w ddweud yw\222r hyn a )Tj
T*
(eglurais wrth y Pwyllgor y tro diwethaf, sef nad )Tj
T*
(ydym erioed wedi cael unrhyw broblem gyda )Tj
T*
(sicrhau y caiff swyddogion y Cynulliad fynediad )Tj
T*
(at yr holl wybodaeth a chofnodion sydd eu )Tj
T*
(hangen arnynt i wneud eu gwaith monitro. Felly, )Tj
T*
(fel yr eglurais y tro diwethaf, nid oes gennym ni )Tj
T*
(fel swyddogion ddim tystiolaeth y bu unrhyw )Tj
T*
(gamddefnydd ar arian y Cynulliad. Mae gennym )Tj
T*
(weithdrefnau cymhleth iawn ac maent wedi bod )Tj
T*
(yn gweithio. Y broblem, ac ni cheisiaf ei )Tj
T*
(bychanu, yw sicrhau y caiff y Swyddfa )Tj
T*
(Archwilio Genedlaethol fynediad, fel y gall )Tj
T*
(honno fodloni\222i hun, yn annibynnol ac ar wah\342n, )Tj
T*
(fod y modd y bu\222r gweithdrefnau\222n rhedeg, a\222r )Tj
T*
(ffordd yr ydym ni wedi barnu\222r sefyllfa, yn )Tj
T*
(gywir. Dyna\222r broblem.)Tj
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([186] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(There is no dispute about )Tj
T*
(that. I was asking why have we not used the )Tj
T*
(arbitration process before now, if you have )Tj
T*
(known of this since July last year.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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([186] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Nid oes dadl ynglyn \342 )Tj
T*
(hynny. Gofyn yr oeddwn i pam nad ydym wedi )Tj
T*
(defnyddio\222r broses gyflafareddu cyn hyn, os )Tj
T*
(ydych yn gwybod am hyn ers mis Gorffennaf y )Tj
T*
(llynedd.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(As I said last time, I have )Tj
T*
(been seeking to proceed by agreement rather than )Tj
T*
(by taking an adversarial stance. I did explain last )Tj
T*
(time that I was particularly interested to hear the )Tj
T*
(views of the Committee on that so that I could )Tj
T*
(decide how I was going to position myself.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Fel y dywedais y tro )Tj
T*
(diwethaf, yr wyf wedi bod yn ceisio symud )Tj
T*
(ymlaen trwy gytundeb yn hytrach na thrwy herio. )Tj
T*
(Fe eglurais y tro diwethaf y byddai gennyf )Tj
T*
(ddiddordeb arbennig mewn clywed sylwadau\222r )Tj
T*
(Pwyllgor ar hynny fel y gallwn benderfynu sut yr )Tj
T*
(oeddwn am ymagweddu.)Tj
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([187] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(I think that you had those, )Tj
T*
(did you not?)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 200.97556 Tm
([187] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Credaf ichi gael y rheini, )Tj
T*
(onid do?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(In response to those views, )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(what I have done since that last meeting is to take )Tj
T*
(further legal advice and I have shared this advice )Tj
T*
(with the Auditor General. He wrote to me on 4 )Tj
T*
(July, and, on the same day, I wrote to the chief )Tj
T*
(executive of the county council, and he is coming )Tj
T*
(to see me next Wednesday.)Tj
ET
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mewn ymateb i\222r sylwadau )Tj
T*
(hynny, beth yr wyf wedi ei wneud ers y cyfarfod )Tj
T*
(diwethaf yw cymryd cyngor cyfreithiol pellach, )Tj
T*
(ac yr wyf wedi rhannu\222r cyngor hwn \342\222r )Tj
T*
(Archwilydd Cyffredinol. Ysgrifennodd ataf ar 4 )Tj
T*
(Gorffennaf, ac, ar yr un dydd, ysgrifennais innau )Tj
T*
(at brif weithredwr y cyngor sir, a bydd hwnnw\222n )Tj
T*
(dod i\222m gweld ddydd Mercher nesaf.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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([188] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Can you share with us\227I do )Tj
T*
(not have a copy of the section 165 )Tj
T*
(agreement\227the mediation process, or the dispute )Tj
T*
(clause that is contained in the contract? What are )Tj
T*
(those different steps? You have spoken of )Tj
T*
(informal mediation through to more stringent )Tj
T*
(action. Can you tell us what each step is?)Tj
ET
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([188] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( A allwch rannu \342 ni\227nid )Tj
T*
(oes gennyf gopi o gytundeb adran 165\227y broses )Tj
T*
(gyfryngu, neu\222r cymal anghydfod sydd yn y )Tj
T*
(contract? Beth yw\222r camau gwahanol hynny? Yr )Tj
T*
(ydych wedi s\364n am gyfryngu anffurfiol drwodd i )Tj
T*
(weithredu mwy llym. A allwch ddweud wrthym )Tj
T*
(am bob cam?)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(It is a three-page part of the )Tj
T*
(agreement, so, if you will forgive me, I will just )Tj
T*
(try to take you through it quickly. The agreement )Tj
T*
(states:)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mae\222n rhan tair tudalen o\222r )Tj
T*
(cytundeb, felly, os maddeuwch imi, mi geisiaf )Tj
T*
(fynd \342 chi drwyddi\222n gyflym. )Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(\221The parties will use their best efforts to )Tj
T*
(negotiate in good faith, and settle any dispute )Tj
T*
(that may arise out of, or relate to, this agreement )Tj
T*
(or any breach of it. If any such dispute cannot be )Tj
T*
(settled amicably through ordinary negotiations )Tj
T*
(by the council\222s head of service responsible, the )Tj
T*
(dispute shall be referred to the senior )Tj
T*
(representatives nominated by the chief )Tj
T*
(executives. If the dispute or difference is not )Tj
T*
(resolved as a result of such meeting, either party )Tj
T*
(may propose to the other in writing that )Tj
T*
(structured negotiations be entered into with the )Tj
T*
(assistance of a neutral adviser or mediator.\222)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Dywed y cytundeb y bydd y carfanau yn gwneud )Tj
T*
(eu gorau glas i negodi\222n ddiffuant, a datrys )Tj
T*
(unrhyw anghydfod a fo\222n codi o\222r cytundeb, neu )Tj
T*
(a wnelo ag ef, neu o unrhyw dor-gytundeb. Os na )Tj
T*
(ellid datrys anghydfod yn gyfeillgar drwy )Tj
T*
(negodiadau arferol gan bennaeth gwasanaeth y )Tj
T*
(cyngor sy\222n gyfrifol, cyfeirir yr anghydfod at yr )Tj
T*
(uwch-gynrychiolwyr a enwebir gan y prif )Tj
T*
(weithredwyr. Os na ddatrysir yr anghydfod neu )Tj
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(wahaniaeth barn o ganlyniad i\222r cyfarfod hwnnw, )Tj
T*
(gallai\222r naill garfan neu\222r llall wneud cynnig )Tj
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(ysgrifenedig i gychwyn ar negodiadau )Tj
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(strwythuredig gyda chymorth cynghorydd neu )Tj
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(gyfryngwr amhleidiol. )Tj
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(It then goes on with a whole series of clauses )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(about the procedure for appointing a mediator )Tj
T*
(and then, if the mediation process cannot come )Tj
T*
(about or is unsatisfactory, at that point there are )Tj
T*
(arrangements for appointing an arbitrator. It goes )Tj
T*
(on to say that, if the arbitration relates to a matter )Tj
T*
(of law or a matter of interpretation of the )Tj
T*
(agreement, the president of the Law Society at )Tj
T*
(the time shall appoint the arbitrator. So that is )Tj
T*
(just a very quick run through it, but I am very )Tj
T*
(happy to let you have a copy.)Tj
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(Wedyn aiff ymlaen \342 chyfres gyfan o gymalau )Tj
T*
(ynglyn \342\222r drefn ar gyfer penodi cyfryngwr ac )Tj
T*
(wedyn, os na all y cyfryngu ddigwydd neu os )Tj
T*
(yw\222n anfoddhaol, bryd hynny mae trefniadau ar )Tj
T*
(gyfer penodi cyflafareddwr. \302 ymlaen i ddweud, )Tj
T*
(os yw\222r cyflafareddiad ynglyn \342 phwynt o )Tj
T*
(gyfraith neu gwestiwn o ddehongliad y cytundeb, )Tj
T*
(yna llywydd Cymdeithas y Gyfraith ar y pryd )Tj
T*
(fydd yn penodi\222r cyflafareddwr. Felly dyna fynd )Tj
T*
(drwyddo\222n frysiog iawn, ond byddaf yn hollol )Tj
T*
(fodlon rhoi copi ichi.)Tj
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([189] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I am grateful for that. I noted )Tj
T*
(four or possibly five steps that we could follow )Tj
T*
(from your brief summary. At which step are we )Tj
T*
(now?)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([189] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Yr wyf yn ddiolchgar am )Tj
T*
(hynny. Nodais bedwar neu efallai bum cam y )Tj
T*
(gallem eu dilyn o\222ch crynodeb byr. Ar ba gam yr )Tj
T*
(ydym ni\222n awr?)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I think that we have reached )Tj
T*
(the point where I will meet with the chief )Tj
T*
(executive, and, if that is not satisfactory, I will be )Tj
T*
(looking to move to more formal mediation. )Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 466.97556 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Yr wyf yn meddwl ein bod )Tj
T*
(wedi cyrraedd y pwynt lle byddaf fi\222n cwrdd \342\222r )Tj
T*
(prif weithredwr, ac, os na fydd hynny\222n )Tj
T*
(foddhaol, byddaf yn edrych i symud tuag at )Tj
T*
(gyfryngu mwy ffurfiol.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([190] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(So, for how long have we )Tj
T*
(been in this situation where Sir John Bourn has )Tj
T*
(not been allowed access to the information that )Tj
T*
(he requires on behalf of the Committee?)Tj
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 368.97556 Tm
([190] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Felly, ers pa hyd yr ydym )Tj
T*
(wedi bod yn y sefyllfa hon lle nad yw Syr John )Tj
T*
(Bourn wedi cael gweld y wybodaeth y mae\222n )Tj
T*
(gofyn amdani ar ran y Pwyllgor?)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(He has been seeking this )Tj
T*
(information for about a year, but I think that that )Tj
T*
(needs to be put into context. He and I have been )Tj
T*
(working to find a satisfactory resolution to this )Tj
T*
(matter, short of following more formal )Tj
T*
(procedures, and that has, I think, had regard to )Tj
T*
(the nature of the dispute and its relative )Tj
T*
(seriousness. )Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Bu\222n ceisio\222r wybodaeth )Tj
T*
(hon ers rhyw flwyddyn, ond yr wyf yn meddwl )Tj
T*
(bod angen gosod hynny yn ei gyd-destun. Bu ef a )Tj
T*
(mi\222n gweithio i ganfod ateb boddhaol i\222r mater )Tj
T*
(hwn, heb fynd i weithredu\222n fwy ffurfiol, ac mae )Tj
T*
(hynny, gredaf fi, wedi ymwneud \342 natur yr )Tj
T*
(anghydfod a\222i ddifrifwch cymharol.)Tj
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([191] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Cadeirydd, may I suggest a )Tj
T*
(course that the Committee might want to take as )Tj
T*
(soon as we have finished\227)Tj
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([191] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Gadeirydd, a gaf fi awgrymu )Tj
T*
(cwrs y gallai\222r Pwyllgor ddymuno ei ddilyn cyn )Tj
T*
(gynted ag y byddwn wedi gorffen\227)Tj
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([192] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(May we come back to )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(you on that? Perhaps Eleanor would like to ask )Tj
T*
(her question and I know that Helen also has a )Tj
T*
(question.)Tj
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([192] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( A gawn ni ddod yn \364l )Tj
T*
(atoch ar hynny? Efallai yr hoffai Eleanor ofyn ei )Tj
T*
(chwestiwn, a gwn fod gan Helen gwestiwn hefyd.)Tj
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([193] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I have one final question.)Tj
ET
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([193] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Mae gennyf un cwestiwn )Tj
T*
(olaf.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 618.17555 Tm
([194] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Okay. We will take that )Tj
T*
(question first.)Tj
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([194] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Iawn. Cymerwn y )Tj
T*
(cwestiwn hwnnw yn gyntaf.)Tj
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([195] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Let us put this into context, )Tj
T*
(Sir Jon. In your response to Alison Halford, you )Tj
T*
(said\227and I made a note of this\227that there is no )Tj
T*
(evidence of inappropriate use of funds. I suggest )Tj
T*
(that that is what we are seeking to ensure. It is )Tj
T*
(the Committee that makes the judgment as to )Tj
T*
(whether there has been appropriate or )Tj
T*
(inappropriate use of funds. Therefore, we are )Tj
T*
(asking your help in allowing us, or Sir John )Tj
T*
(Bourn on our behalf, access to that data, so that )Tj
T*
(we can make an appropriate judgment, which, I )Tj
T*
(hope\227and am sure will\227back up your )Tj
T*
(statement. However, it is for the Committee to )Tj
T*
(make that judgment. )Tj
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([195] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Gadewch inni roi hyn yn ei )Tj
T*
(gyd-destun, Syr Jon. Yn eich ymateb i Alison )Tj
T*
(Halford, dywedasoch\227a gwneuthum nodyn o )Tj
T*
(hyn\227nad oes dim tystiolaeth o ddefnydd )Tj
T*
(amhriodol o arian. Awgrymaf mai dyna\222r ydym )Tj
T*
(yn ceisio\222i sicrhau. Y Pwyllgor sydd i farnu a fu )Tj
T*
(defnydd priodol neu amhriodol o arian. Felly yr )Tj
T*
(ydym yn gofyn am eich cymorth i ganiat\341u i ni, )Tj
T*
(neu Syr John Bourn ar ein rhan, weld y data )Tj
T*
(hynny, fel y gallwn ffurfio barn briodol, a fydd, )Tj
T*
(gobeithio\227ac yr wyf yn siwr y gwna\227yn )Tj
T*
(cefnogi\222ch gosodiad. Fodd bynnag, mater i\222r )Tj
T*
(Pwyllgor yw gwneud y dyfarniad hwnnw.)Tj
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([196] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I wish to make it clear )Tj
T*
(that we have no reason to believe that there has )Tj
T*
(been an inappropriate use of funds, but we want )Tj
T*
(to give the Auditor General the fullest possible )Tj
T*
(support in obtaining the information that he )Tj
T*
(deems appropriate. I know that that is also the )Tj
T*
(position that you take, Sir Jon\227it is a question of )Tj
T*
(time and how we get there.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([196] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Hoffwn ei gwneud yn glir )Tj
T*
(nad oes gennym reswm i gredu y bu defnydd )Tj
T*
(amhriodol ar arian, ond mae arnom eisiau rhoi\222r )Tj
T*
(gefnogaeth lawnaf posibl i\222r Archwilydd )Tj
T*
(Cyffredinol i gael y wybodaeth sy\222n briodol yn ei )Tj
T*
(farn ef. Gwn mai dyma\222ch safbwynt chithau )Tj
T*
(hefyd, Syr Jon\227cwestiwn o amser ydyw, a sut )Tj
T*
(yr awn ati.)Tj
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([197] )Tj
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(Eleanor Burnham: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I just have a brief )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(question.)Tj
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( )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(We are dealing with devolved )Tj
T*
(Assembly matters, and it would appear that a )Tj
T*
(fortnight is a long time to wait for a reply. If )Tj
T*
(anybody is listening to or watching )Tj
T*
(this\227because people do take a keen interest in )Tj
T*
(the Audit Committee\227they would probably )Tj
T*
(understand why it has taken such a length of time )Tj
T*
(if it appears that you have not received a reply to )Tj
T*
(a letter you sent to the chief executive of Cardiff )Tj
T*
(County Council a fortnight ago. Has no reply )Tj
T*
(come back since then?)Tj
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([197] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Eleanor Burnham:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Dim ond cwestiwn )Tj
T*
(byr sydd gennyf. Yr ydym yn delio \342 materion a )Tj
T*
(ddatganolwyd i\222r Cynulliad, ac mae\222n )Tj
T*
(ymddangos bod pythefnos yn amser hir i aros am )Tj
T*
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T*
(ei wylio\227oherwydd bod gan bobl ddiddordeb )Tj
T*
(brwd yn y Pwyllgor Archwilio\227mae\222n debyg y )Tj
T*
(deallent pam y cymerodd gyhyd os yw\222n )Tj
T*
(ymddangos nad ydych chi wedi cael ateb i lythyr )Tj
T*
(a anfonasoch at brif weithredwr Cyngor Sir )Tj
T*
(Caerdydd bythefnos yn \364l. Onid oes ateb wedi )Tj
T*
(dod i law ers hynny?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(I have not had a reply, and I )Tj
T*
(have made the judgment, rightly or wrongly, not )Tj
T*
(to press too hard for a reply under the )Tj
T*
(circumstances. I think that he needs to have time )Tj
T*
(to reflect on what I have written and to undertake )Tj
T*
(any necessary consultations he needs to make )Tj
T*
(within his authority. However, I do have a )Tj
T*
(meeting with him next week. )Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Nid wyf fi wedi cael ateb, )Tj
T*
(ac yr wyf wedi penderfynu, yn gam neu\222n )Tj
T*
(gymwys, beidio \342 phwyso\222n rhy galed am ateb )Tj
T*
(dan yr amgylchiadau. Credaf fod arno angen )Tj
T*
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T*
(unrhyw ymgyngoriadau angenrheidiol y mae )Tj
T*
(angen iddo\222u gwneud o fewn ei awdurdod. Fodd )Tj
T*
(bynnag, y mae gennyf gyfarfod ag ef yr wythnos )Tj
T*
(nesaf.)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([198] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Eleanor Burnham: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Surely that is the )Tj
T*
(whole point, if you have been waiting for a year, )Tj
T*
(and have been trying to press the matter, surely )Tj
T*
(these are the manifestations of the difficulties )Tj
T*
(that you obviously face. )Tj
ET
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 366.17555 Tm
([198] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Eleanor Burnham:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Siawns nad dyna yw\222r )Tj
T*
(holl bwynt, os ydych chi wedi bod yn aros am )Tj
T*
(flwyddyn, ac wedi bod yn ceisio gwthio\222r mater, )Tj
T*
(siawns nad yw hyn yn dangos yr anawsterau yr )Tj
T*
(ydych yn amlwg yn eu hwynebu.)Tj
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14 0 0 14 17 268.17555 Tm
([199] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(It is no doubt frustrating )Tj
T*
(for you, Sir Jon, and it is frustrating for this )Tj
T*
(Committee, because we thought in May that we )Tj
T*
(would come to a conclusion in this session before )Tj
T*
(we went down for the summer.)Tj
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([199] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Mae\222n siwr ei bod yn peri )Tj
T*
(rhwystredigaeth i chi, Syr Jon, ac mae\222n peri )Tj
T*
(rhwystredigaeth i\222r Pwyllgor hwn, oherwydd inni )Tj
T*
(gredu ym mis Mai y deuem i gasgliad yn y )Tj
T*
(sesiwn hwn cyn inni dorri am yr haf.)Tj
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([200] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Helen Mary Jones: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Forgive me, Sir Jon, if )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(these are questions that have already been )Tj
T*
(answered in the previous session on this matter. I )Tj
T*
(want to take you back to the dispute resolution )Tj
T*
(mechanism to which Alun Cairns has already )Tj
T*
(referred, and this also concerns the )Tj
T*
(appropriateness or rigorousness of the original )Tj
T*
(agreement, to which Alison Halford referred. )Tj
T*
(Does this dispute resolution mechanism have )Tj
T*
(specific timescales? Considering the various )Tj
T*
(dispute resolutions with which I have been )Tj
T*
(involved, such as grievance procedures at work, )Tj
T*
(letters must be answered and meetings set up )Tj
T*
(within so many days. Do we have these )Tj
T*
(timescales? I understand what you have said )Tj
T*
(about giving people time to respond, but the )Tj
T*
(council has had a year to decide its position on )Tj
T*
(this. Do we have the timescales, and if so, can )Tj
T*
(you accurately predict, if it comes to a worst-case )Tj
T*
(scenario and you have to invoke the mechanism, )Tj
T*
(how long it will take? If we do not have the )Tj
T*
(timescales, how long do you think that it is likely )Tj
T*
(to take? If it has taken a year and the auditor still )Tj
T*
(does not have the information, then my )Tj
T*
(experience of this kind of mechanism suggests )Tj
T*
(that, if you have to invoke the formal procedure, )Tj
T*
(it could be another six months before he gets that )Tj
T*
(information. I hope that you will not have to do )Tj
T*
(that and that it will be resolved well. However, in )Tj
T*
(terms of any future problems, it is important for )Tj
T*
(the Committee to understand what the )Tj
T*
(mechanism is.)Tj
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([200] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Helen Mary Jones:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Maddeuwch imi, Syr )Tj
T*
(Jon, os yw\222r cwestiynau hyn yn rhai a atebwyd )Tj
T*
(eisoes yn y sesiwn blaenorol ar y mater hwn. )Tj
T*
(Hoffwn fynd \342 chi\222n \364l at y peirianwaith datrys )Tj
T*
(anghydfod y cyfeiriodd Alun Cairns ato eisoes, )Tj
T*
(ac mae a wnelo hyn hefyd \342 phriodoldeb neu )Tj
T*
(drylwyredd y cytundeb gwreiddiol, y cyfeiriodd )Tj
T*
(Alison Halford ato. A oes gan y peirianwaith )Tj
T*
(datrys anghydfod hwn derfynau amser penodol? )Tj
T*
(O ystyried y gwahanol brosesau datrys )Tj
T*
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T*
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T*
(ateb llythyrau a threfnu cyfarfodydd o fewn hyn-)Tj
T*
(a-hyn o ddyddiau. A oes gennym ni\222r terfynau )Tj
T*
(amser hyn? Deallaf yr hyn a ddywedasoch )Tj
T*
(ynglyn \342 rhoi amser i bobl ymateb, ond cafodd y )Tj
T*
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T*
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( The formal procedure does )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(lay down timescales, but I would need to work )Tj
T*
(out a critical path for you because\227and you are )Tj
T*
(clearly experienced in these things\227if something )Tj
T*
(does not happen then there is more time for it to )Tj
T*
(happen, and then you return to the core path. )Tj
T*
(However, the timescales that recur in this )Tj
T*
(document, which I am happy to make available )Tj
T*
(to you, are 14 days for different stages, and there )Tj
T*
(is one case where, if parties fail to reach )Tj
T*
(agreement in the structured negotiations within )Tj
T*
(30 days, then something will happen. So it is )Tj
T*
(those sorts of timescales.)Tj
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mae\222r weithdrefn ffurfiol )Tj
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(yn pennu terfynau amser, ond byddai angen imi )Tj
T*
(feddwl am lwybr critigol ichi oherwydd\227ac yn )Tj
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(amlwg yr ydych yn brofiadol yn y pethau )Tj
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(at y llwybr craidd. Fodd bynnag, y terfynau )Tj
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(amser a welir dro ar \364l tro yn y ddogfen hon, y )Tj
T*
(byddaf yn fodlon ichi ei gweld, yw 14 diwrnod )Tj
T*
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T*
(os na fydd y part\357on wedi dod i gytundeb yn y )Tj
T*
(negodiadau strwythuredig o fewn 30 diwrnod, y )Tj
T*
(bydd rhywbeth yn digwydd. Felly dyna\222r mathau )Tj
T*
(o derfynau amser. )Tj
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([201] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Janet Davies:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( I have quite a lot of )Tj
T*
(sympathy for you in struggling to make progress )Tj
T*
(on this, Sir Jon. It is an issue of timescales again. )Tj
T*
(What has occurred to me while I have been )Tj
T*
(listening is that we now have a long recess period )Tj
T*
(and it will be three to four months before the )Tj
T*
(Audit Committee meets again. To what extent )Tj
T*
(will you pursue this rigorously throughout the )Tj
T*
(summer recess, and would it perhaps be possible )Tj
T*
(for you to contact the Chair, because the )Tj
T*
(Committee will not be meeting, in order to keep )Tj
T*
(him informed of progress?)Tj
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14 0 0 14 313.10106 497.77556 Tm
([201] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Janet Davies:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mae gennyf gryn dipyn o )Tj
T*
(gydymdeimlad \342 chi wrth ichi geisio symud )Tj
T*
(ymlaen \342 hyn, Syr Jon. Mae\222n fater o derfynau )Tj
T*
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T*
(oedd bod gennym yn awr gyfnod hir o doriad ac )Tj
T*
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T*
(dri neu bedwar mis. I ba raddau yr ewch ar \364l )Tj
T*
(hyn o ddifrif drwy gydol toriad yr haf, ac a )Tj
T*
(fyddai modd ichi efallai gysylltu \342\222r Cadeirydd, )Tj
T*
(gan na fydd y Pwyllgor yn cyfarfod, i roi )Tj
T*
(gwybod iddo ef beth sy\222n digwydd?)Tj
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 282.17555 Tm
(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Yes, certainly. Indeed, it is )Tj
T*
(helpful, if I can put it this way, to know that the )Tj
T*
(Committee is pressing me hard for an outcome )Tj
T*
(and I will take that into account. I can certainly )Tj
T*
(ensure that, either directly through the Chair or, )Tj
T*
(if he prefers, through the clerk, you are kept )Tj
T*
(regularly informed on how matters are )Tj
T*
(progressing.)Tj
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Byddai, yn sicr. Yn wir, )Tj
T*
(mae\222n ddefnyddiol, os caf ei roi felly, gwybod )Tj
T*
(bod y Pwyllgor yn pwyso\222n galed arnaf am )Tj
T*
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T*
(sicrhau y cewch wybodaeth reolaidd, un ai\222n )Tj
T*
(uniongyrchol drwy\222r Cadeirydd neu, os yw\222n )Tj
T*
(well ganddo, drwy\222r clerc, ynghylch y modd y )Tj
T*
(mae pethau\222n dod yn eu blaen.)Tj
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([202] )Tj
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(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( If you channel )Tj
T*
(information through the clerk, it will reach me )Tj
T*
(wherever I may be. That is probably the formal )Tj
T*
(and appropriate way to do it. I would be grateful )Tj
T*
(for that information.)Tj
ET
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([202] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Os sianelwch wybodaeth )Tj
T*
(drwy\222r clerc, gwnaiff fy nghyrraedd i lle bynnag )Tj
T*
(y byddaf. Dyna\222r ffordd ffurfiol a phriodol i )Tj
T*
(wneud hyn, mae\222n debyg. Byddwn yn ddiolchgar )Tj
T*
(am y wybodaeth honno.)Tj
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([203] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Ann Jones:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( This point is aimed at the )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(National Audit Office rather than Sir Jon. When )Tj
T*
(Assembly officials consulted the audit office )Tj
T*
(about what was being built into the section 165 )Tj
T*
(agreement, did you not feel that it was necessary, )Tj
T*
(other than just to accept the standard formula, if )Tj
T*
(you had wanted access to records, to have written )Tj
T*
(that in at the time?)Tj
ET
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([203] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Ann Jones:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Anelir y pwynt hwn at y )Tj
T*
(Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol yn hytrach na )Tj
T*
(Syr Jon. Pan ymgynghorodd swyddogion y )Tj
T*
(Cynulliad \342\222r swyddfa archwilio ynghylch yr hyn )Tj
T*
(a g\342i ei gynnwys yng nghytundeb adran 165, oni )Tj
T*
(wnaethoch deimlo ei bod yn angenrheidiol, os )Tj
T*
(dymunech gael mynediad at y cofnodion, eich )Tj
T*
(bod yn sicrhau y c\342i hynny ei gynnwys ar y pryd, )Tj
T*
(yn hytrach na dim ond derbyn y fformiwla )Tj
T*
(safonol?)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([204] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Our questioning is aimed )Tj
T*
(at Sir Jon at the moment.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 564.97556 Tm
([204] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Yr ydym yn anelu ein )Tj
T*
(cwestiynau at Syr Jon ar y funud.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 517.37555 Tm
([205] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Ann Jones:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I will ask Sir Jon, then. Did )Tj
T*
(you think that such a clause should have been )Tj
T*
(written into the section 165 agreement, and were )Tj
T*
(you surprised that the audit office did not ask for )Tj
T*
(it to be written in?)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 517.37555 Tm
([205] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Ann Jones:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Gofynnaf i Syr Jon, felly. A )Tj
T*
(wnaethoch chi feddwl y dylasid bod wedi )Tj
T*
(cynnwys cymal o\222r fath yng nghytundeb adran )Tj
T*
(165, ac a oeddech yn synnu bod y swyddfa )Tj
T*
(archwilio heb ofyn am ei gynnwys?)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( The clause that we have )Tj
T*
(written in is one that emerged through a process )Tj
T*
(of consultation with the National Audit Office )Tj
T*
(and one which we mutually felt fully safeguarded )Tj
T*
(everyone\222s position. It certainly fully )Tj
T*
(safeguarded our position in relation to the )Tj
T*
(identical section 165 agreement, or the type of )Tj
T*
(section 165 agreement, with the Vale of )Tj
T*
(Glamorgan Council. I could say, to help the )Tj
T*
(Committee perhaps, that, in the light of this )Tj
T*
(experience, which, to the best of my knowledge )Tj
T*
(is unique\227it is certainly unique to Wales\227we )Tj
T*
(have refined the formula we would use in future )Tj
T*
(to avoid a recurrence of this situation. However, )Tj
T*
(in fairness to everyone concerned, I do not think )Tj
T*
(that the situation we are in at present is one that )Tj
T*
(we could reasonably have foreseen.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 419.37555 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Mae\222r cymal sydd gennym )Tj
T*
(yn un a ddeilliodd o broses ymgynghori gyda\222r )Tj
T*
(Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol ac yn un, yn )Tj
T*
(ein barn ni i gyd, a warchodai sefyllfa pawb yn )Tj
T*
(llwyr. Yn sicr yr oedd yn gwarchod ein sefyllfa o )Tj
T*
(ran cytundeb adran 165 unfath, neu\222r math o )Tj
T*
(gytundeb adran 165, gyda Chyngor Bro )Tj
T*
(Morgannwg. Gallwn ddweud, er mwyn helpu\222r )Tj
T*
(Pwyllgor efallai, ein bod, yng ngoleuni\222r profiad )Tj
T*
(hwn, sydd, hyd y gwn i, yn unigryw\227yn sicr )Tj
T*
(mae\222n unigryw i Gymru\227wedi gwella\222r )Tj
T*
(fformiwla a ddefnyddiem yn y dyfodol er mwyn )Tj
T*
(atal y sefyllfa hon rhag codi eto. Fodd bynnag, er )Tj
T*
(tegwch i bawb a fu\222n ymwneud \342 hi, nid wyf yn )Tj
T*
(meddwl bod y sefyllfa yr ydym ynddi ar hyn o )Tj
T*
(bryd yn un y gallem yn rhesymol fod wedi\222i )Tj
T*
(rhagweld.)Tj
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([206] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I wish to press you a little )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(further on that, in order to reassure the )Tj
T*
(Committee. You said earlier that you have now )Tj
T*
(had the benefit of legal advice from the Counsel )Tj
T*
(General. Are we right in interpreting that the )Tj
T*
(Counsel General reaffirms that we have a cast-)Tj
T*
(iron case in law for the provisions of that )Tj
T*
(agreement to be enforced?)Tj
ET
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([206] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Hoffwn wasgu ychydig )Tj
T*
(ymhellach arnoch ar hynny, er mwyn tawelwch )Tj
T*
(meddwl y Pwyllgor. Dywedasoch yn gynharach )Tj
T*
(eich bod bellach wedi cael cyngor cyfreithiol gan )Tj
T*
(y Cwnsler Cyffredinol. A ydym yn iawn i )Tj
T*
(ddehongli bod y Cwnsler Cyffredinol yn )Tj
T*
(ailddatgan bod gennym achos cwbl gyfiawn yn )Tj
T*
(llygaid y gyfraith dros orfodi darpariaethau\222r )Tj
T*
(cytundeb hwnnw?)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( It is not my practice, Chair, )Tj
T*
(to share legal advice publicly, particularly in )Tj
T*
(circumstances where we may need to apply it to )Tj
T*
(a third party, if you can understand me. I have )Tj
T*
(certainly received advice, which is reflected in )Tj
T*
(the letter that I sent to Byron Davies and which )Tj
T*
(emphasises that what I am seeking is to use the )Tj
T*
(National Audit Office as our agent, in accordance )Tj
T*
(with the section 165 agreement. So what we are )Tj
T*
(saying to it very clearly is, \221This is simply a )Tj
T*
(question of your implementing the agreement )Tj
T*
(that you have signed with us. It is not me )Tj
T*
(imposing a further set of auditors on you, it is )Tj
T*
(using the National Audit Office as our agent, in )Tj
T*
(accordance with the agreement.\222)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Nid yw\222n arfer gennyf, )Tj
T*
(Gadeirydd, rannu cyngor cyfreithiol yn )Tj
T*
(gyhoeddus, yn enwedig mewn amgylchiadau lle )Tj
T*
(gallai fod angen inni ei gymhwyso i drydydd )Tj
T*
(parti, os ydych yn fy neall i. Yn sicr, yr wyf wedi )Tj
T*
(cael cyngor, a adlewyrchir yn y llythyr a anfonais )Tj
T*
(at Byron Davies ac sy\222n pwysleisio mai\222r hyn yr )Tj
T*
(wyf yn ceisio\222i wneud yw defnyddio\222r Swyddfa )Tj
T*
(Archwilio Genedlaethol fel asiant inni, yn unol \342 )Tj
T*
(chytundeb adran 165. Felly, yr hyn yr ydym yn ei )Tj
T*
(ddweud wrtho\222n glir iawn yw, \221Mater syml yw )Tj
T*
(hyn o sicrhau eich bod yn gweithredu\222r cytundeb )Tj
T*
(yr ydych wedi\222i lofnodi gyda ni. Nid fi sydd yn )Tj
T*
(gorfodi set pellach o archwilwyr arnoch, ond )Tj
T*
(defnyddio\222r Swyddfa Archwilio Genedlaethol fel )Tj
T*
(ein hasiant yr ydym, yn unol \342\222r cytundeb.\222)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([207] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( In our last session you )Tj
T*
(referred to the legal interpretation of \221reasonable )Tj
T*
(access\222. I do not want to pursue the detail of the )Tj
T*
(legal advice that you have been given, but are )Tj
T*
(you confident that we are in the right in pressing )Tj
T*
(for this?)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([207] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Yn ein sesiwn ddiwethaf )Tj
T*
(cyfeiriasoch at ddehongliad cyfreithiol )Tj
T*
(\221mynediad rhesymol\222. Nid oes arnaf eisiau mynd )Tj
T*
(ar \364l manylion y cyngor cyfreithiol a roddwyd )Tj
T*
(ichi, ond a ydych yn hyderus ei bod yn iawn inni )Tj
T*
(bwyso am hyn?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( We are certainly in the right )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(to seek what I have sought from the chief )Tj
T*
(executive of Cardiff County Council on the basis )Tj
T*
(of the letter that I have sent to him. So that we )Tj
T*
(are clear, what I have suggested is that the most )Tj
T*
(satisfactory way through this for both parties is )Tj
T*
(that, when we have our regular meetings with )Tj
T*
(Cardiff Harbour Authority officials in future to )Tj
T*
(satisfy ourselves on financial matters relating to )Tj
T*
(the section 165 agreement, we have, where Sir )Tj
T*
(John Bourn wishes it, an NAO official present at )Tj
T*
(those meetings so that those meetings can be )Tj
T*
(used to give the NAO the assurance that it )Tj
T*
(requires. I am satisfied with that. )Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 746.97556 Tm
(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Yn sicr mae\222n iawn inni )Tj
T*
(geisio yr hyn a geisiais gan brif weithredwr )Tj
T*
(Cyngor Sir Caerdydd ar sail y llythyr a anfonais )Tj
T*
(ato. Er mwyn bod yn glir, yr hyn a awgrymais )Tj
T*
(yw mai\222r ffordd fwyaf boddhaol i\222r naill garfan )Tj
T*
(a\222r llall i\222w dilyn, pan gawn ein cyfarfodydd )Tj
T*
(rheolaidd gyda swyddogion Awdurdod Harbwr )Tj
T*
(Caerdydd yn y dyfodol i\222n bodloni ein hunain ar )Tj
T*
(faterion ariannol yn ymwneud \342 chytundeb adran )Tj
T*
(165, y dylai fod, lle dymuna Syr John Bourn )Tj
T*
(hynny, swyddog o\222r Swyddfa Archwilio )Tj
T*
(Genedlaethol yn bresennol yn y cyfarfodydd )Tj
T*
(hynny fel y gellir defnyddio\222r cyfarfodydd i roi\222r )Tj
T*
(sicrwydd y mae\222r swyddfa archwilio yn ei geisio. )Tj
T*
(Yr wyf yn fodlon ar hynny.)Tj
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 480.97556 Tm
([208] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( From your discussions )Tj
T*
(with Sir John, are you satisfied that what you )Tj
T*
(have asked Mr Byron Davies for in your letter )Tj
T*
(meets fully the requirements spelt out by Sir John )Tj
T*
(in his letter?)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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([208] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Yn sg\356l eich trafodaethau )Tj
T*
(\342 Syr John, a ydych yn fodlon fod yr hyn yr )Tj
T*
(ydych wedi gofyn i Mr Byron Davies amdano yn )Tj
T*
(eich llythyr yn llawn fodloni\222r gofynion a )Tj
T*
(amlinellir gan Syr John yn ei lythyr?)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( It is certainly my )Tj
T*
(understanding that Sir John would be sufficiently )Tj
T*
(satisfied if that was to be the case.)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Fy nealltwriaeth i yn sicr )Tj
T*
(yw y byddai Syr John yn ddigon bodlon pe bai )Tj
T*
(hynny\222n wir.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 318.57556 Tm
([209] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Sir John assents to that, )Tj
T*
(which is good. I want to bring this session to a )Tj
T*
(close, and I know that Alun has a question to ask )Tj
T*
(at the end.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 318.57556 Tm
([209] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mae Syr John yn cyd-)Tj
T*
(fynd \342 hynny, sy\222n beth da. Mae arnaf eisiau )Tj
T*
(dwyn y sesiwn hon i ben, a gwn fod gan Alun )Tj
T*
(gwestiwn i\222w ofyn ar y diwedd.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 17 237.37555 Tm
([210] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( I have one more question, )Tj
T*
(Chair.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 237.37555 Tm
([210] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Mae gennyf fi un )Tj
T*
(cwestiwn arall, Gadeirydd.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
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([211] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Ask it quickly, before I )Tj
T*
(call Alun.)Tj
ET
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/T1_1 1 Tf
14 0 0 14 313.10106 189.77556 Tm
([211] )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
( Gofynnwch ef yn gyflym, )Tj
T*
(cyn imi alw ar Alun.)Tj
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([212] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( There was some )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(correspondence between Byron Davies and )Tj
T*
(David Richards, dated 20 July 2001, which )Tj
T*
(indicated that the chief executive preferred to be )Tj
T*
(audited by the district auditor. That was another )Tj
T*
(item that we had to stumble over. It is my )Tj
T*
(understanding that Cardiff County Council is at )Tj
T*
(odds with its auditors and is critical of the )Tj
T*
(aggressive manner of the Audit Committee, and )Tj
T*
(the minutes of its meetings seem to indicate that )Tj
T*
(the district auditor is asking too many tough )Tj
T*
(questions. Bearing in mind that Sir John has not )Tj
T*
(been able to have access, and this minute )Tj
T*
(indicates that the district auditor is also in )Tj
T*
(disagreement with Cardiff council, why is the )Tj
T*
(council not opening up its books? Why would the )Tj
T*
(chief executive of a major county council not )Tj
T*
(make available financial information based on )Tj
T*
(financial money?)Tj
ET
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/T1_0 1 Tf
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([212] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alison Halford:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Yr oedd gohebiaeth )Tj
T*
(rhwng Byron Davies a David Richards, )Tj
T*
(dyddiedig 20 Gorffennaf 2001, yn dweud bod yn )Tj
T*
(well gan y prif weithredwr gael ei archwilio gan )Tj
T*
(yr archwilydd dosbarth. Dyna eitem arall y bu\222n )Tj
T*
(rhaid inni faglu drosti. Fy nealltwriaeth i yw bod )Tj
T*
(Cyngor Sir Caerdydd benben \342\222i archwilwyr ac )Tj
T*
(yn feirniadol o ffordd ymosodol y Pwyllgor )Tj
T*
(Archwilio, ac mae cofnodion ei gyfarfodydd fel )Tj
T*
(pe baent yn awgrymu bod yr archwilydd )Tj
T*
(dosbarth yn gofyn gormod o gwestiynau anodd. )Tj
T*
(O gofio nad yw Syr John wedi gallu cael )Tj
T*
(mynediad, ac mae\222r cofnod hwn yn awgrymu )Tj
T*
(bod yr archwilydd dosbarth yn anghytuno \342 )Tj
T*
(chyngor Caerdydd hefyd, pam nad yw\222r cyngor )Tj
T*
(yn agor ei lyfrau? Pam na fyddai prif weithredwr )Tj
T*
(cyngor sir mawr yn darparu gwybodaeth ariannol )Tj
T*
(sy\222n seiliedig ar gyllid ariannol?)Tj
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([213] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(We can but speculate on )Tj
T*
(that, Alison. I do not think that it is reasonable to )Tj
T*
(ask Sir Jon to speculate on it. The questions will )Tj
T*
(be answered when we get full, unfettered access )Tj
T*
(to this information.)Tj
ET
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([213] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Ni allwn ond dyfalu am )Tj
T*
(hynny, Alison. Nid wyf yn meddwl ei bod yn )Tj
T*
(rhesymol gofyn i Syr Jon ddyfalu yn ei gylch. )Tj
T*
(Atebir y cwestiynau pan gawn fynediad llawn, )Tj
T*
(dilyffethair at y wybodaeth hon.)Tj
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(In considering how we handle this issue between )Tj
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(now and when we meet next, time clearly is of )Tj
T*
(the essence. Equally clearly, there are questions )Tj
T*
(of how this can be enforced. Before we could )Tj
T*
(consider taking any draconian steps, which )Tj
T*
(includes steps at law, the provisions of the )Tj
T*
(section 165 agreement, particularly the )Tj
T*
(provisions for arbitration, have to be exhausted, )Tj
T*
(otherwise one would not be able to go to the next )Tj
T*
(step of law. I hope that those steps will be taken )Tj
T*
(urgently if next week\222s meeting does not resolve )Tj
T*
(the issue. If it resolves the issue and Sir John )Tj
T*
(Bourn is satisfied, fine. If not, there are questions )Tj
T*
(of what further steps could be taken. I think that )Tj
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(Alun wants to come in on this.)Tj
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(Wrth ystyried sut yr ymdriniwn \342\222r mater hwn )Tj
T*
(rhwng yn awr a\222n cyfarfod nesaf, mae\222n amlwg )Tj
T*
(nad oes gennym amser i\222w wastraffu. Mae yr un )Tj
T*
(mor amlwg bod cwestiynau ynghylch sut y gellid )Tj
T*
(sicrhau y gweithredir hyn. Cyn y gallem ystyried )Tj
T*
(cymryd unrhyw gamau diarbed, sy\222n cynnwys )Tj
T*
(camau cyfreithiol, rhaid mynd drwy holl )Tj
T*
(ddarpariaethau cytundeb adran 165, yn enwedig )Tj
T*
(y darpariaethau ar gyfer cyflafareddu, neu fel )Tj
T*
(arall ni ellid mynd ymlaen at y cam cyfreithiol )Tj
T*
(nesaf. Gobeithiaf y cymerir y camau hynny ar )Tj
T*
(fyrder os na ddatrysir y mater yng nghyfarfod yr )Tj
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(wythnos nesaf. Os datrysir y mater bryd hynny a )Tj
T*
(bod Syr John Bourn yn fodlon, gorau oll. Os na, )Tj
T*
(mae cwestiynau ynghylch pa gamau pellach y )Tj
T*
(gellid eu cymryd. Yr wyf yn meddwl bod Alun )Tj
T*
(am ddod i mewn ar hyn.)Tj
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([214] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Sir Jon, by when would you )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(think it reasonable for us to expect access to )Tj
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(those figures?)Tj
ET
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([214] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Syr Jon, erbyn pa bryd y )Tj
T*
(tybiech y byddai\222n rhesymol inni ddisgwyl cael )Tj
T*
(mynediad at y ffigurau hynny?)Tj
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14 0 0 14 17 681.77556 Tm
(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I hope that my meeting on )Tj
T*
(Wednesday will be successful and that that will )Tj
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(be the end of it. )Tj
ET
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Gobeithiaf y bydd fy )Tj
T*
(nghyfarfod ddydd Mercher yn llwyddiannus ac )Tj
T*
(mai dyna fydd diwedd y mater.)Tj
ET
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([215] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( So it would be reasonable )Tj
T*
(for us to expect access after the meeting on )Tj
T*
(Wednesday?)Tj
ET
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([215] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Felly byddai\222n rhesymol )Tj
T*
(inni ddisgwyl mynediad ar \364l y cyfarfod ddydd )Tj
T*
(Mercher?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I am certainly hoping that )Tj
T*
(that will be the outcome, but I would not want to )Tj
T*
(raise false hopes among the Committee. I have )Tj
T*
(already had some challenging questions about the )Tj
T*
(length of time it has taken so far. My views on )Tj
T*
(this are very clear and robust, and you have been )Tj
T*
(equally clear and robust in expressing your )Tj
T*
(views, which I will take into my meeting next )Tj
T*
(Wednesday.)Tj
ET
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Yn sicr yr wyf yn gobeithio )Tj
T*
(mai dyna fydd y canlyniad, ond ni hoffwn godi )Tj
T*
(gobeithion gwag ymhlith y Pwyllgor. Yr wyf )Tj
T*
(eisoes wedi cael cwestiynau heriol am yr amser a )Tj
T*
(gymerodd hyd yn hyn. Mae fy marn ar hyn yn )Tj
T*
(glir a chadarn iawn, a buoch chithau yr un mor )Tj
T*
(glir a chadarn wrth fynegi\222ch barn chi, ac fe )Tj
T*
(gofiaf hynny wrth fynd i\222m cyfarfod ddydd )Tj
T*
(Mercher nesaf.)Tj
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([216] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(If you experience resistance )Tj
T*
(at each and every stage of the four or five steps )Tj
T*
(that you highlighted, before we look to the )Tj
T*
(courts, what sort of timescale would you expect )Tj
T*
(to pass before we reach the penultimate step of )Tj
T*
(legal action?)Tj
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([216] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Os profwch wrthwynebiad )Tj
T*
(yn ystod pob un o\222r pedwar neu bum cam a )Tj
T*
(enwyd gennych, cyn inni edrych tua\222r llysoedd, )Tj
T*
(pa fath o amserlen fyddech chi\222n disgwyl ei dilyn )Tj
T*
(cyn cyrraedd y cam olaf ond un, sef dwyn achos )Tj
T*
(cyfreithiol?)Tj
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(Sir Jon Shortridge: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(To give you an authoritative )Tj
T*
(answer, I really would have to go through this )Tj
T*
(carefully and make sure that I am not misleading )Tj
T*
(you but, subject to that, I would certainly hope )Tj
T*
(that, by the time you come back after the recess, )Tj
T*
(we will have completed this matter one way or )Tj
T*
(the other. What I would say to caution you, )Tj
T*
(though, is that the dispute resolution procedure is )Tj
T*
(there so that any subsequent recourse to the )Tj
T*
(courts would be on a very narrow matter indeed, )Tj
T*
(so I do not think that the Committee should be )Tj
T*
(assuming that this is something that would )Tj
T*
(necessarily end up in a court. I think that both )Tj
T*
(parties would be obliged, in the first instance, to )Tj
ET
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(Syr Jon Shortridge:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( I roi ateb awdurdodol ichi, )Tj
T*
(yn wir byddai\222n rhaid imi fynd drwy hyn yn )Tj
T*
(ofalus a gwneud yn siwr nad ydwyf yn eich )Tj
T*
(camarwain, ond, yn amodol ar hynny, fy )Tj
T*
(ngobaith yn sicr fyddai, erbyn ichi ddychwelyd )Tj
T*
(wedi\222r toriad, y byddwn wedi cwblhau\222r mater )Tj
T*
(hwn y naill ffordd neu\222r llall. Yr hyn a )Tj
T*
(ddywedwn fel rhybudd wrthych, fodd bynnag, )Tj
T*
(yw bod y drefn datrys anghydfod yno i sicrhau )Tj
T*
(mai ar fater cul iawn y byddai unrhyw )Tj
T*
(ymgyfreitha wedi hynny, felly nid wyf yn )Tj
T*
(meddwl y dylai\222r Pwyllgor fod yn rhagdybio bod )Tj
T*
(hyn yn rhywbeth a fyddai o reidrwydd yn )Tj
T*
(cyrraedd llys barn. Yr wyf yn meddwl y byddai )Tj
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(accept the conclusions of an arbitrator.)Tj
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(rheidrwydd ar y ddwy ochr, yn y lle cyntaf, i )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(dderbyn casgliadau cyflafareddwr.)Tj
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([217] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(We could have thought of )Tj
T*
(that, Cadeirydd; we thought that each party )Tj
T*
(would have been obliged to do that before now. )Tj
T*
(May I suggest that, if all of the steps have been )Tj
T*
(followed through by the time we return after the )Tj
T*
(summer recess, the Committee might want to )Tj
T*
(take a view at that time to pursue this matter )Tj
T*
(through the courts if it is necessary and if that is )Tj
T*
(the advice at the time?)Tj
ET
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([217] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Alun Cairns:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( Gallasem fod wedi meddwl )Tj
T*
(am hynny, Gadeirydd; yr oeddem yn meddwl y )Tj
T*
(buasai\222r ddwy ochr wedi gorfod gwneud hynny )Tj
T*
(cyn hyn. A gaf fi awgrymu, os bydd yr holl )Tj
T*
(gamau wedi eu cymryd erbyn inni ddychwelyd )Tj
T*
(wedi toriad yr haf, y gallai\222r Pwyllgor ddewis )Tj
T*
(bryd hynny i ddilyn y mater hwn drwy\222r llysoedd )Tj
T*
(os bydd angen ac os mai dyna fydd y cyngor ar y )Tj
T*
(pryd?)Tj
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([218] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley: )Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
(May we include it on the )Tj
T*
(agenda for our first meeting next term? I )Tj
T*
(apologise that this is becoming a perennial item )Tj
T*
(on our agenda but I think that you will )Tj
T*
(understand why we need that, Sir Jon. We must )Tj
T*
(come to a determination on the next steps when )Tj
T*
(we have the detailed report back. I take the point )Tj
T*
(that is made that, in pursuing matters through )Tj
T*
(arbitration, that may involve some compromise. )Tj
T*
(However, the compromise will only be )Tj
T*
(acceptable to this Committee if it is acceptable to )Tj
T*
(the Auditor General, and the Auditor General is )Tj
T*
(satisfied that he is getting access. If he is not )Tj
T*
(satisfied\227whatever those proceedings have )Tj
T*
(involved\227and if there are further steps that can )Tj
T*
(be taken, it may well be that this Committee )Tj
T*
(would be minded to take them. I think that that )Tj
T*
(should be clearly understood. In the meantime, I )Tj
T*
(hope that you will use all the endeavours that you )Tj
T*
(can to try to use this procedure to its ultimate )Tj
T*
(potential to get a satisfactory outcome before we )Tj
T*
(come back. Whatever happens, perhaps you will )Tj
T*
(keep us posted of the situation. When we come )Tj
T*
(back, if necessary\227if this issue has not been )Tj
T*
(resolved\227it will be an item on the agenda of our )Tj
T*
(next meeting.)Tj
ET
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([218] )Tj
/T1_1 1 Tf
(Dafydd Wigley:)Tj
/T1_0 1 Tf
( A gawn ni ei rhoi ar )Tj
T*
(agenda ein cyfarfod cyntaf y tymor nesaf? )Tj
T*
(Ymddiheuraf fod hyn yn mynd yn eitem )Tj
T*
(flynyddol ar ein hagenda ond yr wyf yn meddwl )Tj
T*
(y gwnewch ddeall pam y mae angen hynny, Syr )Tj
T*
(Jon. Rhaid inni ddod i benderfyniad ar y camau )Tj
T*
(nesaf pan gawn yr adroddiad manwl yn \364l. )Tj
T*
(Deallaf y pwynt y gall dilyn materion drwy )Tj
T*
(gyflafareddiad olygu y bydd yn rhaid wrth ryw )Tj
T*
(gyfaddawd. Fodd bynnag, ni fydd y cyfaddawd )Tj
T*
(ond yn dderbyniol i\222r Pwyllgor hwn os yw\222n )Tj
T*
(dderbyniol i\222r Archwilydd Cyffredinol, a bod yr )Tj
T*
(Archwilydd Cyffredinol yn fodlon ei fod yn cael )Tj
T*
(mynediad. Os na fydd ef yn fodlon\227beth )Tj
T*
(bynnag y bydd y trefniadau hynny wedi\222u )Tj
T*
(golygu\227ac os oes camau pellach y gellir eu )Tj
T*
(cymryd, efallai y byddai\222r Pwyllgor hwn o blaid )Tj
T*
(eu cymryd. Credaf y dylid gwneud hynny\222n glir. )Tj
T*
(Yn y cyfamser, gobeithiaf y gwnewch bopeth a )Tj
T*
(allwch i geisio defnyddio\222r weithdrefn hon i\222w )Tj
T*
(llawn botensial i gael canlyniad boddhaol cyn )Tj
T*
(inni ddod yn \364l. Beth bynnag a ddigwydd, efallai )Tj
T*
(y sicrhewch y cawn y wybodaeth ddiweddaraf )Tj
T*
(am y sefyllfa. Pan ddychwelwn, os bydd )Tj
T*
(angen\227os na fydd y mater hwn wedi\222i )Tj
T*
(ddatrys\227bydd yn eitem ar agenda ein cyfarfod )Tj
T*
(nesaf.)Tj
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(Diolchaf i Syr Jon a David Richards am ddod ger )Tj
0 -1.2 TD
(ein bron heddiw. Byddwch yn sylweddoli bod y )Tj
T*
(Pwyllgor yn cymryd y materion hyn o ddifrif )Tj
T*
(calon. Mae cyfrifoldeb arnom i roi\222n cefnogaeth )Tj
T*
(lwyr i\222r Archwilydd Cyffredinol, i\222w alluogi i )Tj
T*
(wneud ei waith. Dyna pam y buom yn pwyso )Tj
T*
(mor galed ar hyn. Cynhyrchir trawsgrifiad o\222r )Tj
T*
(trafodaethau hyn, a byddwch yn derbyn copi )Tj
T*
(ohono er mwyn ichi gywiro unrhyw )Tj
T*
(gamgymeriadau ffeithiol. Bydd wedyn yn )Tj
T*
(ymddangos fel rhan o\222n cofnodion. Diolch yn )Tj
T*
(fawr iawn ichi. Gobeithiaf y cewch haf )Tj
T*
(llewyrchus a chynhyrchiol, a chyfle i gael egwyl )Tj
T*
(hefyd. )Tj
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(I thank Sir Jon and David Richards for appearing )Tj
T*
(before us today. You will realise that the )Tj
T*
(Committee takes these issues very seriously. We )Tj
T*
(have a responsibility to give the Auditor General )Tj
T*
(our full support, to enable him to do his work. )Tj
T*
(That is why we have pressed so hard on this )Tj
T*
(matter. A transcript of these discussions will be )Tj
T*
(produced, of which you will receive a copy so )Tj
T*
(that you can correct any factual errors. It will )Tj
T*
(then appear as part of the minutes. Thank you )Tj
T*
(very much. I hope that you have a prosperous )Tj
T*
(and productive summer, as well as an )Tj
T*
(opportunity to have a break. )Tj
ET
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(Daeth y sesiwn cymryd tystiolaeth i ben am 2.36 p.m.)Tj
1.2365 -1.2 Td
(The evidence-taking session ended at 2.36 p.m.)Tj
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